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Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

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Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#41

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When white Europeans invaded Australia they disrupted and displaced many indigenous people, either incidentally via colonising farmland, or intentionally via snatching kids and putting them in boarding schools etc. Slaughters/massacres also occurred, especially early in colonisation.

Given indigenous Australians favoured oral storytelling rather than written records a great many traditions and histories were lost during that time. While efforts by Europeans to catalogue and record traditions has occurred (as seen in this piece), only in the past few decades have many tribes/nations been able to properly explore and research their past.

A recent example I can cite, anecdotally, was an Aboriginal man who told me he was only able to learn his native language* because German missionaries has recorded it in the 1800s and released the records back to the people a century later.

* There's hundreds of indigenous dialects throughout Australia.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a PhD in physics and even physics itself is in a poor state, yet I totally get why all the other sciences envy physics: they're even worse

This is explained by complexity. The more components involved in a field, the less feasible the scientific method is. (E.g. math > physics > chemistry > materials science > cell biology > human biology > psychology > sociology)

Math is not a science. Math is fundamentally opposite of science.

In science nothing can be proven. Proof is exclusively the domain of mathematics. The Lack of proof is foundational to science, it’s built into the core axiom of the scientific method.

This axiom is actually the reason why science is so “bad” because nothing can really be confirmed. But something like psychology is on a whole different level because of the replication crisis. Psychology has outright fraud going on.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#44
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post #4

I’m surprised by how tenuous the link is between the cave find and the archival find. Is the bar really that low for claims in archaeological papers or am I missing something? It’s a compelling story, but surely Occam’s razor would conclude that poking sticks into dead animals and fire pits is just what people have done for thousands of years? Where’s the evidence that there was chanting and a healing ceremony? Edit:…

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Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#45
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now now we aren’t allowed to assert that our culture is better or worse than any other, that is an inviolable cardinal sin for our pristine progressive rationalist minds. We have all of modern pharmacology and they have tiny sticks poked into burning animals in the fireplace. Different healing rituals for different folks.

They more or less survived 12000 years healing themselves like that. Let's check back in 12000 years of what medicine that actually works leads to.

Considering what a huge percentage of modern US health ailments are self inflicted through lifestyle, it's hard to imagine future generations wouldn't look at our cars and our big macs with the same patronizing quaint view as we would healing with burning sticks.

The modern person who sticks to a healthy lifestyle while still having modern medicine for emergencies and misfortunes will surely live better than just about anyone in the past, but, that person is not the actual average. The average person nowadays has their health dragged down by modern lifestyle problems so much, that I'm not sure if they're better off than someone in the past[1], even with modern medicine

[1]: Cherry picking a pretty recent past, though. For example, the obesity epidemic was way less in full swing in 1970, but we already had modern sanitation, antibiotics, and vaccines by then, which eliminated the lions' share of illness. Once you go back before vaccines, it's a mixed bag. Still hard to say though, the diabetes epidemic is getting almost as bad as polio once was and trend lines keep pointing upwards.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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> it's basically conjectures pilled upon one another. It's not just archeology, history is not much better either. They're both basically pseudosciences

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

Pseudoscience consists of statements, beliefs, or practices that claim to be both scientific and factual but are incompatible with the scientific method.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#47
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post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Each one was found in a separate fireplace around the size of the palm of a hand—far too small to have been used for heat or cooking meat. The slightly charred ends of the sticks had been cut specially to stick into the fire, and both were coated in human or animal fat." That's rather more than circumstantial evidence. Granted the ritual might have changed a bit over 12,000 odd years but where else have you seen peo…

Archaeology is almost exclusively circumstantial evidence...

It varies a lot. Later European archaeology is generally quite well-founded as it ties in to a historical record. While I don't have any familiarity with the Colosseum, I have heard that there are records of payments to sailors for manipulating the shades.

If you get further away from historical records, it does get more tenuous, but there is often a solid basis of scientific or technical evidence. My own doctorate is in use of physics for dating by thermoluminescence and optically stimulated luminescence, which together cover a lot of ground for stuff that cannot be dated by C14. There are several quantitative techniques like that, for instance for isotopic analysis which can be used for deducing trade routes. There are also many qualitative and semi-quantitative techniques, varying from traditional trenches and ground penetrating radar to pollen analysis (which gives you information on climate and ground cover).

However all of this has to be tied together in to a picture of human culture. That necessarily has a large element of interpretation. This is not unique - you can see the same pattern in fields like astronomy. Generally I think archaeologists are reasonably good at knowing when they are on uncertain ground. If I may give an example: in Scotland, mainly on the north west coasts, there are the remains of pre-historic buildings called brochs. The biggest stands 40' high, and it is possible to walk up through the stairs between the double walls to the top. We know roughly when they were built, but not why. There are several theories, but I find it interesting that there is an absence of dogmatic assertion that one particular interpretation is true, and it is still possible to have a sensible discussion about a "fringe" theory (my own idea is that some of them may have been for excarnation) which will centre on what evidence you might need to search for (bone fragments in this case).

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#50

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The output of science has been quite effective in warming up the planet, and at creating ever better technology for killing each other, also without much questioning (of science's contribution to such things, or the wisdom of our culture using it as guidance for our actions and beliefs in the proportion we do, or what we might have accomplished if we'd invested more in other disciplines). And, science achieved this in only a couple hundred years!
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