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Alan Turing died 70 years ago

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Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#41

Post by freedomben »

jl6 wrote: post #25
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Homosexuality was seen as a perversion in the public eye. Possibly, but the law was criminalising what happened in private. There's a big difference between prudish laws that ban public displays and intrusive laws that govern what consenting adults do in private.

We now recognize this of course, but I think the point being made above is that society at the time did not, and they thought they were acting morally. Perhaps the lesson is that actions done out of a sense of moral righteousness should not be immune from challenge. Much evil is committed in the name of good.

Reminds me somewhat of this great C.S. Lewis observation:

> “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#42

Post by foldr »

allsummer wrote: post #36
foldr wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He was not castrated for being gay, but for a relationship with an Eastern European 19-year old homeless man, and getting his house broken into, while having a security clearance and access to secret information. Not sure what point you’re trying to make here. His chemical castration was a condition of his probation following his indecency conviction, and had nothing directly to do with his security clearance.

I'm fine with Turing being a hero or a role model. But people are now writing that Turing was castrated for being gay. > following his indecency conviction, and had nothing directly to do with his security clearance. It had nothing directly to do with his being gay. You can be gay without starting relationships with homeless boys and getting your house broken into, exposing yourself to blackmail or coercion.

He was not charged with being burgled (which is obviously not a crime!) or for exposing himself to blackmail (which is also not a crime). He was charged for having sex with another man, and his punishment was a result of that conviction. So his conviction and punishment were absolutely directly to do with his being gay. The very fact that chemical castration was considered as a 'treatment' shows that everyone involved regarded the problem as being 'gay sex', not 'exposing oneself to blackmail'.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#43

Post by allsummer »

dxdm wrote: post #37
allsummer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His death was consistent with both suicide and accident. He left no note, so the reasons for why he likely committed suicide are not clear. His nephew suggests it was "boyfriend trouble" and his friend said he had underwent the "treatment" in good spirits. Turing, on the advice of his lawyer, plead guilty and opted for chemical castration himself. Of all the men in history charged with "gross indecency", Turing was t…

> He was not castrated for being gay, but for a relationship with an Eastern European 19-year old homeless man, and getting his house broken into, while having a security clearance and access to secret information. Assuming this is true (I don't know), would a heterosexual man have received the same punishment? In any case, it seems pretty cruel and unusual to me.

A heterosexual 40-year-old man with top-level security clearance, access to sensitive information, and the skill set of Turing, getting involved with Eastern European strays, at the start of the Cold War, possibly compromising himself, would not have received the same punishment, but likely would not have been spared jail time.

Cruel? From the lens of modern times, certainly. But don't we still chemically castrate certain sex offenders?

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#44

Post by freedomben »

graemep wrote: post #24
hackerlight wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a moral realist and liberal humanist, I agree, but the post highlights something important. Evil acts are often motivated by sincere moral systems. These people are mostly not sociopaths acting independent of a moral system. The feelings of moral disgust you feel towards their views are probably no different neurobiologically to the feelings of moral disgust they felt. This is important for us to recognize. Feelin…

I agree, but then what do you base a moral system on? We should be introspective, and it helps, but it is far from being a solution. It is very difficult to get away from personal feels, or from you culture.

> I agree, but then what do you base a moral system on?

I've thought about this way more than I probably should. While I don't have any answers, I do think two very famous attempts are particularly worth studying (and IMHO, blending). Immanuel Kant's exploration, particularly his categorical imperative, and Jon Stuart Mill's Utilitarianism.

IMHO though, it's a very difficult task because we humans tend to base our moral judgments on our emotional reactions to things, and our reactions (such as disgust) are a complex combination of instinct from past evolution, and culture we are raised in. If the outcome from some system/principle disagrees with our emotional reaction, we tend to discard the system rather than examine and question our reactions. I actually find Robert Sapolsky's work (and others in that area) to be just as interesting/illuminating because while they don't provide answers themselves, they do a remarkable job helping us see the challenges involved with trusting our gut.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#45

Post by freedomben »

foldr wrote: post #42
allsummer wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fine with Turing being a hero or a role model. But people are now writing that Turing was castrated for being gay. > following his indecency conviction, and had nothing directly to do with his security clearance. It had nothing directly to do with his being gay. You can be gay without starting relationships with homeless boys and getting your house broken into, exposing yourself to blackmail or coercion.

He was not charged with being burgled (which is obviously not a crime!) or for exposing himself to blackmail (which is also not a crime). He was charged for having sex with another man, and his punishment was a result of that conviction. So his conviction and punishment were absolutely directly to do with his being gay. The very fact that chemical castration was considered as a 'treatment' shows that everyone involve…

Al Capone was also charged with tax evasion to the fullest extent of the law, even though the gov was rarely if ever that aggressive with tax evaders. Prosecutors/law enforcement go for the charge that stands the best chance of conviction, not necessarily the one that is most accurate.

Personally given how society was at that point in time, I think his gayness was a big factor in how he was treated, but there are better arguments than pointing to what he was charged with as that is easily refuted.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#46

Post by defrost »

082349872349872 wrote: post #35
defrost wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He would have known that his offence was against the law and that he would be prosecuted. That specific bit of reasoning is very likely wrong. The circumstances of Turings investigation and arrest started with Turing going to the police to report that had been robbed by a person considered to be a rent boy. If he had the slightest notion of how homosexual behaviour was dealt with by the regular police and that he w…

« Et tous les bourgeois du 16ème / Se demandent pourquoi je t'aime » What's the (north african?)-set movie to which Mika refers in this tube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MPtXUeUznY While I find my eyes and ear (même les américaines comprennent) caught by Mme Mac, and I wouldn't have the foggiest in what context "molly with a Dilly" might usually occur, the video and text make one suspect that MM. Doriand and Mik…

Hell of a tangent, near non contact but, FWiW I pretty sure it's a Sergio Leone film, many of which had sequences shot in Spain and some in North Africa (IIRC) - the blanket toss back is such a trope.

The following piano man bars just prior to the singing are, to my ear, a definite riff on Moby's Extreme Ways that was repurposed for the Jason Bourne films.

So bouncy .. does no one call back to Arthur Rimbaud anymore? https://genius.com/Paul-kelly-and-the-messengers-the-executi...

Everyone loves long guns, how else can you reach the gate from the house? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7owwTz7Z0OE

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#47

Post by freedomben »

allsummer wrote: post #36
foldr wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He was not castrated for being gay, but for a relationship with an Eastern European 19-year old homeless man, and getting his house broken into, while having a security clearance and access to secret information. Not sure what point you’re trying to make here. His chemical castration was a condition of his probation following his indecency conviction, and had nothing directly to do with his security clearance.

I'm fine with Turing being a hero or a role model. But people are now writing that Turing was castrated for being gay. > following his indecency conviction, and had nothing directly to do with his security clearance. It had nothing directly to do with his being gay. You can be gay without starting relationships with homeless boys and getting your house broken into, exposing yourself to blackmail or coercion.

> It had nothing directly to do with his being gay.

Do you really (personally) believe that? You don't think his gayness was a factor at all?

Seeing the way he was treated by law enforcement, particularly after the facts started coming to light, I can't believe it wasn't a factor. His final charge may have been more for the classified info risk as you say (I honestly don't know enough about the details to have an opinion there), but many parts of the process I think would have gone a lot more differently had he not been gay. Without a doubt in my mind, they would not have treated him so disrespectfully and cavalierly.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#48

Post by matthewdgreen »

defrost wrote: post #14
delichon wrote: post #4

What would justice have looked like for Alan Turing for his war contributions? I'm tempted to say that we should have showered him with our highest honors, that Britain should have made him a duke and a billionaire out of gratitude, and he should have had drawers full of keys to the great cities of the world. But none of that could have meaured up against just leaving the poor guy alone to pursue his own thoughts and…

What reward then for Bill Tutte who actually cold cracked a harder cipher than the one Turing supposedly cracked (He built upon earlier work by the Polish group who also made the first Bombes). What reward for Tommy Flowers? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._T._Tutte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Flowers I like Turing, I like his work, but he was by no means the only genius at Bletchley.

The reward they received is to live long lives without criminal prosecution and barbaric treatment at the hands of the law, I suppose. They also lived long enough to have their wartime work declassified and publicly recognized, which Turing never did.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#49

Post by [deleted] »

InfiniteVortex wrote: post #2

Interesting to note that the Justice Minister Lord McNally didn't consider a pardon appropriate, but the Queen eventually pardoned Turing after an outpouring of public support (and with the advice of the Government) [0]. (Turing was convicted for committing homosexual acts. Based on my cursory reading it seems like it was one of the reasons why he likely committed suicide. It's a tragic story of a great man, whom we…

[deleted]

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#50

Post by foldr »

freedomben wrote: post #45
foldr wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was not charged with being burgled (which is obviously not a crime!) or for exposing himself to blackmail (which is also not a crime). He was charged for having sex with another man, and his punishment was a result of that conviction. So his conviction and punishment were absolutely directly to do with his being gay. The very fact that chemical castration was considered as a 'treatment' shows that everyone involve…

Al Capone was also charged with tax evasion to the fullest extent of the law, even though the gov was rarely if ever that aggressive with tax evaders. Prosecutors/law enforcement go for the charge that stands the best chance of conviction, not necessarily the one that is most accurate. Personally given how society was at that point in time, I think his gayness was a big factor in how he was treated, but there are bet…

But this is nonsense in the case of Turing. He was simply charged because he admitted to the police officer investigating the burglary that he'd had gay sex. His treatment was in line with that of other gay men of the time who were charged with similar offences (perhaps more 'lenient' if anything). What evidence do you have that there was more to the case than this? I have seen no indication that security concerns entered into the prosecution or sentencing.

Beware that OP's post is full of random nonsense, such as the claim that the younger man in question was 'Eastern European'. (His name was Arnold Murray and he was born in the UK, as far as anyone has been able to ascertain.)

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