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Alan Turing died 70 years ago

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Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#21

Post by allsummer »

InfiniteVortex wrote: post #2

Interesting to note that the Justice Minister Lord McNally didn't consider a pardon appropriate, but the Queen eventually pardoned Turing after an outpouring of public support (and with the advice of the Government) [0]. (Turing was convicted for committing homosexual acts. Based on my cursory reading it seems like it was one of the reasons why he likely committed suicide. It's a tragic story of a great man, whom we…

His death was consistent with both suicide and accident. He left no note, so the reasons for why he likely committed suicide are not clear. His nephew suggests it was "boyfriend trouble" and his friend said he had underwent the "treatment" in good spirits. Turing, on the advice of his lawyer, plead guilty and opted for chemical castration himself.

Of all the men in history charged with "gross indecency", Turing was the only one to receive a pardon. He was not castrated for being gay, but for a relationship with an Eastern European 19-year old homeless man, and getting his house broken into, while having a security clearance and access to secret information.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#23

Post by graemep »

InfiniteVortex wrote: post #2

Interesting to note that the Justice Minister Lord McNally didn't consider a pardon appropriate, but the Queen eventually pardoned Turing after an outpouring of public support (and with the advice of the Government) [0]. (Turing was convicted for committing homosexual acts. Based on my cursory reading it seems like it was one of the reasons why he likely committed suicide. It's a tragic story of a great man, whom we…

It is far from certain that he committed suicide:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-18561092

IIRC part of the coroner's reasoning is that "In a man of his type, one never knows what his mental processes are going to do next."

So essentially they concluded it was suicide because something about Turing (gay? academic? gay academic?) was regarded as indicating instability. I very much doubt a coroner today would follow that reasoning!

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#24

Post by graemep »

hackerlight wrote: post #16
TotalCrackpot wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Countless humans got their lives destroyed because of this perfectly normal variation of human sexuality, that's atrocious and so we should never forget what happened to Alan Turing because of essentially religious fundamentalism.

As a moral realist and liberal humanist, I agree, but the post highlights something important. Evil acts are often motivated by sincere moral systems. These people are mostly not sociopaths acting independent of a moral system. The feelings of moral disgust you feel towards their views are probably no different neurobiologically to the feelings of moral disgust they felt. This is important for us to recognize. Feelin…

I agree, but then what do you base a moral system on?

We should be introspective, and it helps, but it is far from being a solution. It is very difficult to get away from personal feels, or from you culture.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#25

Post by jl6 »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #13
croes wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back then it was perfectly aligned. Homosexuality was seen as a perversion in the public eye.

> Homosexuality was seen as a perversion in the public eye. Possibly, but the law was criminalising what happened in private. There's a big difference between prudish laws that ban public displays and intrusive laws that govern what consenting adults do in private.

We now recognize this of course, but I think the point being made above is that society at the time did not, and they thought they were acting morally.

Perhaps the lesson is that actions done out of a sense of moral righteousness should not be immune from challenge. Much evil is committed in the name of good.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#26

Post by foldr »

allsummer wrote: post #21
InfiniteVortex wrote: post #2

Interesting to note that the Justice Minister Lord McNally didn't consider a pardon appropriate, but the Queen eventually pardoned Turing after an outpouring of public support (and with the advice of the Government) [0]. (Turing was convicted for committing homosexual acts. Based on my cursory reading it seems like it was one of the reasons why he likely committed suicide. It's a tragic story of a great man, whom we…

His death was consistent with both suicide and accident. He left no note, so the reasons for why he likely committed suicide are not clear. His nephew suggests it was "boyfriend trouble" and his friend said he had underwent the "treatment" in good spirits. Turing, on the advice of his lawyer, plead guilty and opted for chemical castration himself. Of all the men in history charged with "gross indecency", Turing was t…

> He was not castrated for being gay, but for a relationship with an Eastern European 19-year old homeless man, and getting his house broken into, while having a security clearance and access to secret information.

Not sure what point you’re trying to make here. His chemical castration was a condition of his probation following his indecency conviction, and had nothing directly to do with his security clearance.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#27

Post by graemep »

qsort wrote: post #17
InfiniteVortex wrote: post #2

Interesting to note that the Justice Minister Lord McNally didn't consider a pardon appropriate, but the Queen eventually pardoned Turing after an outpouring of public support (and with the advice of the Government) [0]. (Turing was convicted for committing homosexual acts. Based on my cursory reading it seems like it was one of the reasons why he likely committed suicide. It's a tragic story of a great man, whom we…

The reasoning is interesting though. I don't necessarily agree with it but it's not "lmao gay". A posthumous pardon was not considered appropriate as Alan Turing was properly convicted of what at the time was a criminal offence. He would have known that his offence was against the law and that he would be prosecuted. It is tragic that Alan Turing was convicted of an offence that now seems both cruel and absurd—partic…

"A posthumous pardon was not considered appropriate as Alan Turing was properly convicted of what at the time was a criminal offence"

That is what pardons are for. If he was not properly convicted then the conviction could have been overturned instead.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#28

Post by graemep »

defrost wrote: post #14
delichon wrote: post #4

What would justice have looked like for Alan Turing for his war contributions? I'm tempted to say that we should have showered him with our highest honors, that Britain should have made him a duke and a billionaire out of gratitude, and he should have had drawers full of keys to the great cities of the world. But none of that could have meaured up against just leaving the poor guy alone to pursue his own thoughts and…

What reward then for Bill Tutte who actually cold cracked a harder cipher than the one Turing supposedly cracked (He built upon earlier work by the Polish group who also made the first Bombes). What reward for Tommy Flowers? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._T._Tutte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Flowers I like Turing, I like his work, but he was by no means the only genius at Bletchley.

Tommy Flowers was very badly treated: he was forced to destroy his work while others built on it.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#29

Post by scoopertrooper »

defrost wrote: post #14
delichon wrote: post #4

What would justice have looked like for Alan Turing for his war contributions? I'm tempted to say that we should have showered him with our highest honors, that Britain should have made him a duke and a billionaire out of gratitude, and he should have had drawers full of keys to the great cities of the world. But none of that could have meaured up against just leaving the poor guy alone to pursue his own thoughts and…

What reward then for Bill Tutte who actually cold cracked a harder cipher than the one Turing supposedly cracked (He built upon earlier work by the Polish group who also made the first Bombes). What reward for Tommy Flowers? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._T._Tutte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Flowers I like Turing, I like his work, but he was by no means the only genius at Bletchley.

Not as widely remembered, but it sounds like those two did a bit better than Turing. They both died of old age after successful careers in their respective fields.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#30

Post by hazn »

notRobot wrote: post #15
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a classic example of where legality and morality aren't aligned

It's more a case of mainstream morality not aligning with ethics.

i’d like to add a counter point to your classification, respectfully: i felt like the comment implies that morality can be subjective (mainstream), but ethics is objective.

my point would be ethics is also subjective, and thus morality and ethics can be used interchangeably. in german, they are! (Ethik und Moral/Moralität)

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