Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#41

Post by biimugan » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:40 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #35

biimugan wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how your claims here are relevant to anything. In the hearing, Stefanik kept asking the presidents whether a call to genocide was considered bullying and harassment according to the respective universities' codes of conduct. That's a factual question that has an objective answer, which they gave multiple times: it depends if it's pervasive and severe. Which is exactly what those codes of conduct st…

> whether a call to genocide was considered bullying and harassment according to the respective universities' codes of conduct. That's a factual question that has an objective answer, which they gave multiple times: it depends if it's pervasive and severe. Are you seriously claiming that, if students had made similar statements about any other group of people (except maybe whites), these universities would be asking…

Let me put it to you this way. All you hear about is what is reported in your media of choice. Having lived and worked on campuses before, I can tell you that these individual incidents happen A LOT, whether it's racism, anti-semitism, anti-Muslim attitudes, etc. Almost all of them end with slaps on the wrist because they're deemed one-off events. And almost none of them are reported on. Everything in the media is constantly focusing on anomalous events to drive reactions, just like the one you're having.

People need to step back and realize that the majority of students are 18-21 year olds. They are children. The student codes of conduct are meant to correct bad behavior, not to punish and expel students.

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#42

Post by biimugan » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:58 PM UTC

RestlessMind wrote: post #40

CogitoCogito wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have specific examples of the universities in question acting in contradiction to these statements or are you just supposing they would? If you have specific examples, it would be interesting to compare the universities' response.

Here you go: "Harvard gets worst score ever in FIRE’s College Free Speech Rankings" - https://www.thefire.org/news/harvard-gets-worst-score-ever-f... Many examples there, like: "From 2019 to this year, Harvard sanctioned four scholars, three of whom it terminated." or "In 2020, Harvard revoked conservative student activist Kyle Kashuv’s acceptance over comments he made on social media as a 16-year-old, for which he h…

There are hundreds and thousands of students and faculty in the U.S. I'm sorry, but a handful of examples is not really particularly convincing.

The survey results are interesting, but I think contradict the point you're trying to make in many cases. For example, the survey showed students felt less comfortable discussing abortion. An odd result if the claim is there's some kind of liberal oligarchy that's selectively punishing conservative speech.

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#43

Post by s1artibartfast » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 10:31 PM UTC

biimugan wrote: post #41

rayiner wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whether a call to genocide was considered bullying and harassment according to the respective universities' codes of conduct. That's a factual question that has an objective answer, which they gave multiple times: it depends if it's pervasive and severe. Are you seriously claiming that, if students had made similar statements about any other group of people (except maybe whites), these universities would be asking…

Let me put it to you this way. All you hear about is what is reported in your media of choice. Having lived and worked on campuses before, I can tell you that these individual incidents happen A LOT, whether it's racism, anti-semitism, anti-Muslim attitudes, etc. Almost all of them end with slaps on the wrist because they're deemed one-off events. And almost none of them are reported on. Everything in the media is co…

I think that is a very fair point. Most of the university action against free speech is targeted not at students, but against controversial faculty and other 3rd parties.

Most of these actions are demanded by the student majority.

The underlying phenomenon is that the children are running the daycare and administration is doing their bidding. It is perfectly consistent that the admin only takes action against the most egregious students. However, a book, paper, or statement might get faculty removed. Similarly, invited guest speakers can be shut down by hecklers veto.

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#44

Post by rayiner » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 10:39 PM UTC

euroderf wrote: post #24

Nasrudith wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now neither the Israelis nor Palestinians believe in a two state solution. And you have two groups of people bent on the others destruction. Out of sheer exasperation at this point I would propose forcing a one-state solution on them as a less-bad option. We've tried two state solution for decades and it just plain hasn't worked.

Not a bad idea. But if Palestinians are incorporated into Israel as citizens with full voting rights, Israel will at some point cease to be majority-Jewish. (Or so I have read.) Identity crisis. This is a tough nut to crack.

It wouldn’t be an “identity crisis.” It would be catastrophic for the safety of Jews in the country. There is not a single Muslim Arab country in the world where Jews are first-class citizens. Nearly a million Jews were expelled from Arab countries after the creation of Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_...

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#45

Post by rayiner » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 10:47 PM UTC

biimugan wrote: post #41

rayiner wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whether a call to genocide was considered bullying and harassment according to the respective universities' codes of conduct. That's a factual question that has an objective answer, which they gave multiple times: it depends if it's pervasive and severe. Are you seriously claiming that, if students had made similar statements about any other group of people (except maybe whites), these universities would be asking…

Let me put it to you this way. All you hear about is what is reported in your media of choice. Having lived and worked on campuses before, I can tell you that these individual incidents happen A LOT, whether it's racism, anti-semitism, anti-Muslim attitudes, etc. Almost all of them end with slaps on the wrist because they're deemed one-off events. And almost none of them are reported on. Everything in the media is co…

What sorts of statements are you lumping together here? If the kids saying “all lives matter” are getting a “slap on the wrist,” then “from the river to the sea” should get kids expelled. What people are outraged about is the warped value systems of these university administrators, not the punishments per se.

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#46

Post by onetimeusename » Sat, Dec 09, 2023, 6:48 AM UTC

olliej wrote: post #17

JamesBarney wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a huge oversimplification of the conflict. The Israel-Palestine conflict is not like US native American conflict where we landed somewhere we'd never lived before, killed as many people as possible, and broke treaty after treaty. The Jews has been living there for 2000+ years. The Ottoman empire was the last empire in control of that area. It lost a war and gave up that land to the British. The British propos…

>The Jews has been living there for 2000+ years. No, the area currently named Israel had not been a jewish state in centuries when the British occupiers gave it to a new set of jewish colonizers of what was an occupied Arab state. The jewish population of the area label Israel was less than 10% jewish until 1910 or so (after Britain had control and started encouraging colonization before explicitly assigning it to a…

If Jews who moved to the area Arabs occupied are colonizers, what are Arabs who move to Europe?

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#47

Post by euroderf » Sat, Dec 09, 2023, 1:40 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #44

euroderf wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a bad idea. But if Palestinians are incorporated into Israel as citizens with full voting rights, Israel will at some point cease to be majority-Jewish. (Or so I have read.) Identity crisis. This is a tough nut to crack.

It wouldn’t be an “identity crisis.” It would be catastrophic for the safety of Jews in the country. There is not a single Muslim Arab country in the world where Jews are first-class citizens. Nearly a million Jews were expelled from Arab countries after the creation of Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_...

Well then I guess it's gotta be two states. Not one-and-a-rump.

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#48

Post by rayiner » Sat, Dec 09, 2023, 5:45 PM UTC

euroderf wrote: post #47

rayiner wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn’t be an “identity crisis.” It would be catastrophic for the safety of Jews in the country. There is not a single Muslim Arab country in the world where Jews are first-class citizens. Nearly a million Jews were expelled from Arab countries after the creation of Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_...

Well then I guess it's gotta be two states. Not one-and-a-rump.

“Two-state solution” is an ambiguous concept. Westerners think it means Israel and a Palestinian state. Arabs think it means an Arab state in Palestine and a multi-ethnic, Arab-majority state in Israel. And Israel only exists until Arabs can muster enough arms to expel Jews from that country, like they have done in all the other Arab countries.

We know this because that’s what they keep doing. They have repeatedly tried to wipe out Israel. Thats why Qatar hosts the leadership of Hamas. Even if Palestinians genuinely accepted a two-state solution, the other Arab countries wouldn’t.

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#49

Post by aredox » Sat, Dec 09, 2023, 10:16 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #25

aredox wrote: post #4

"Great"* explanation. That none of those highly-paid, very select heads of prestigious universities were able to give. Which should lead them to lose their jobs anyway. *Being in Europe, we won't agree with the very low bar the US has for free speech - to us it's as absurd as the mad "right to bear arms" as applied in the US (note I am in Switzerland, which also allows to bear arms but... without the crazyness). But…

Read the whole thing. > Stefanik’s purpose was transparent. No matter how the college presidents answered, she won. If they answered accurately — that the question depended on the context - she could shriek neeeeeerrrrrrdddd like a football player bullying a kid with glasses, and credulous people would eat it up. If the presidents answered inaccurately but simply “yes,” she could make her next point: then why aren’t…

Which is like... Yeah? You fire or demote professors and students because they make their colleagues "uncomfortable" with "micro-aggressions". What is this then?

And he's jumping from a clear call for genocide to things that are more debatable WRT that...

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#50

Post by RestlessMind » Sun, Dec 10, 2023, 12:52 AM UTC

biimugan wrote: post #42

RestlessMind wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here you go: "Harvard gets worst score ever in FIRE’s College Free Speech Rankings" - https://www.thefire.org/news/harvard-gets-worst-score-ever-f... Many examples there, like: "From 2019 to this year, Harvard sanctioned four scholars, three of whom it terminated." or "In 2020, Harvard revoked conservative student activist Kyle Kashuv’s acceptance over comments he made on social media as a 16-year-old, for which he h…

There are hundreds and thousands of students and faculty in the U.S. I'm sorry, but a handful of examples is not really particularly convincing. The survey results are interesting, but I think contradict the point you're trying to make in many cases. For example, the survey showed students felt less comfortable discussing abortion. An odd result if the claim is there's some kind of liberal oligarchy that's selectivel…

> but a handful of examples is not really particularly convincing

CogitoCogito asked for "specific examples of the universities in question acting in contradiction to these statements". When you are providing specific examples, a handful are enough.