Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#11

Post by exbotanical » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 4:27 AM UTC

olliej wrote: post #8

exbotanical wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, this was exactly the point and has largely been the major gripe when talking about the pro-Hamas protests. These are the same people that literally destroyed livelihoods over "hate speech" (their definition of what constitutes as "hate" has sometimes been dubious at best). This sort of lack of principle and inconsistency is not healthy for universities.

By conflating pro-palestine protests with pro-hamas you're no different from the anti-semitic assholes who use Israel's apartheid regime and their current genocide as a reason to hate all Jews. It is in fact possible to say "Hamas is bad" while still believing Palestinians are humans with the same rights the UN brought in as a result of things like the holocaust. It's also possible to go "given the decades of colonia…

> By conflating pro-palestine protests with pro-hamas

Actually, you conflated the two. I explicitly said "pro-Hamas" and not "pro-Palestinian" because I meant "pro-Hamas".

If you watch the hearing, the most contentious question was in reference to actual calls for genocide coming predominantly from pro-Hamas protesters.

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#12

Post by 1letterunixname » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 6:51 AM UTC

An irreducible problem requiring effort is gaining critical thinking skills, knowledge, perspective, and intellectual and moral honesty and courage. Here are some controversial books that may enlighten the reader to some of the myriad nuances of intersecting problems:

- The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War by Sharlet. 2023.

- Woke Racism by McWhorter. 2021.

- The Case Against BDS: Why Singling Out Israel for Boycott is Anti-Semitic. by Dershowitz. 2018.

- Empire of Illusion: The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle by Hedges. 2010.

- The Fateful Triangle by Chomsky. 1983.

- Anti-Semite and Jew by Sarte. 1946.

- Mein Kampf by Hitler. 1925.

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#13

Post by JamesBarney » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 6:53 AM UTC

olliej wrote: post #8

exbotanical wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, this was exactly the point and has largely been the major gripe when talking about the pro-Hamas protests. These are the same people that literally destroyed livelihoods over "hate speech" (their definition of what constitutes as "hate" has sometimes been dubious at best). This sort of lack of principle and inconsistency is not healthy for universities.

By conflating pro-palestine protests with pro-hamas you're no different from the anti-semitic assholes who use Israel's apartheid regime and their current genocide as a reason to hate all Jews. It is in fact possible to say "Hamas is bad" while still believing Palestinians are humans with the same rights the UN brought in as a result of things like the holocaust. It's also possible to go "given the decades of colonia…

This is a huge oversimplification of the conflict.

The Israel-Palestine conflict is not like US native American conflict where we landed somewhere we'd never lived before, killed as many people as possible, and broke treaty after treaty.

The Jews has been living there for 2000+ years. The Ottoman empire was the last empire in control of that area. It lost a war and gave up that land to the British. The British proposed a break up. That was rejected. The UN proposed a break up of the area into Jewish and Arab land. The Arabs did not agree with he division of land and went to war with Israel, Israel won. This happened a few times until we ended up with today's boarders.

Now neither the Israelis nor Palestinians believe in a two state solution. And you have two groups of people bent on the others destruction.

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#14

Post by 1letterunixname » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:07 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #2

Excellent legal analysis, but misses the point completely. These college Presidents are getting pilloried because they are perceived as being supportive of the same people who say “words are violence” in other contexts: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/07/nyt-opinion-bennet-... These are the same people who said Trump’s anti-China rhetoric caused anti-Asian hate crimes. If we take them at their word about that,…

It's self-righteous McCarthyism fueled by media, putting a thumb on the scale for one people while demonizing another. And if you don't immediately reaffirm terrorism is bad, Israel has the right to exist, and "BDS == antisemitism", then you're a Nazi and a supporter of Hamas. There is no nuance and no one is questioning extremist absurdity coming out of lobbyists or the fact that Palestinians in Gaza will need a Marshall Plan because 1.9M IDPs will either need new homes or they will seek safer places in the rest of the world to survive. The Western reaction is embarrassing and disappointing, but not unexpected. The mainstream media is full of compliant, uneducated morons.

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#15

Post by 1letterunixname » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:20 AM UTC

exbotanical wrote: post #11

olliej wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By conflating pro-palestine protests with pro-hamas you're no different from the anti-semitic assholes who use Israel's apartheid regime and their current genocide as a reason to hate all Jews. It is in fact possible to say "Hamas is bad" while still believing Palestinians are humans with the same rights the UN brought in as a result of things like the holocaust. It's also possible to go "given the decades of colonia…

> By conflating pro-palestine protests with pro-hamas Actually, you conflated the two. I explicitly said "pro-Hamas" and not "pro-Palestinian" because I meant "pro-Hamas". If you watch the hearing, the most contentious question was in reference to actual calls for genocide coming predominantly from pro-Hamas protesters.

Which rocks are these pro-Hamas protestors hiding under? Are they poisoning us with fluoride or parachuting into Iowa? I haven't seen any "pro-Hamas demonstrators" but I have seen either moronic kids or anti-Palestinian infiltrators dressing up in fatigues to join pro-Palestinian protestors to muddy the waters. I haven't seen any green jihad flags.

Another failure is Bill Maher: a moron and a tool of idiocy because he equates pro-Palestinian with pro-Hamas without any nuance or concern for the lives of both Gazans and Israelis.

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#16

Post by PeterStuer » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:32 AM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #9

loeg wrote: post #7

> Discriminatory harassment may be considered to violate this policy when it is so severe or pervasive, and objectively offensive, that it creates a work, educational, or living environment that a reasonable person would consider intimidating, hostile, or abusive In what contexts is (explicitly) calling for the genocide of Jews not objectively offensive or hostile? Maybe if you whisper it quietly in an empty room? I…

The phrase "reasonable person" does the heavy lifting here. A reasonable person should be able to understand that others have different opinions that may be distasteful or wrong. Unless those opinions are violent and directed at them personally, they are not hostile.

So you are saying 'words are violence' was BS all along? Better tell that to those college campusses and their speech police squads. Bring back the reasonable people they ousted over the last two decades.

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#17

Post by olliej » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:42 AM UTC

JamesBarney wrote: post #13

olliej wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By conflating pro-palestine protests with pro-hamas you're no different from the anti-semitic assholes who use Israel's apartheid regime and their current genocide as a reason to hate all Jews. It is in fact possible to say "Hamas is bad" while still believing Palestinians are humans with the same rights the UN brought in as a result of things like the holocaust. It's also possible to go "given the decades of colonia…

This is a huge oversimplification of the conflict. The Israel-Palestine conflict is not like US native American conflict where we landed somewhere we'd never lived before, killed as many people as possible, and broke treaty after treaty. The Jews has been living there for 2000+ years. The Ottoman empire was the last empire in control of that area. It lost a war and gave up that land to the British. The British propos…

>The Jews has been living there for 2000+ years.

No, the area currently named Israel had not been a jewish state in centuries when the British occupiers gave it to a new set of jewish colonizers of what was an occupied Arab state.

The jewish population of the area label Israel was less than 10% jewish until 1910 or so (after Britain had control and started encouraging colonization before explicitly assigning it to a specific group of Jews). At that point a mass colonization was started. To claim that because "jews have always lived there" means that 10s to 100s of thousands of immigrants moving to an area in which they had not lived in generations are not colonizers is patently false. Especially when the people migrating to the area are the group that have all the financial, military, and political power.

> Now neither the Israelis nor Palestinians believe in a two state solution

you mean the two groups in an apartheid state do not believe that they have equal rights? Remember again, fundamentally the two state solution is "you were colonized, and should be happy to lose half your country". In terms of peace it's probably the only path forward, but don't pretend the victims of colonization should be happy with that outcome.

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#18

Post by dmvdoug » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:45 AM UTC

loeg wrote: post #7

> Discriminatory harassment may be considered to violate this policy when it is so severe or pervasive, and objectively offensive, that it creates a work, educational, or living environment that a reasonable person would consider intimidating, hostile, or abusive In what contexts is (explicitly) calling for the genocide of Jews not objectively offensive or hostile? Maybe if you whisper it quietly in an empty room? I…

The test isn’t simply if a statement is objectively offensive. You ignored that the harassment has to be severe and pervasive.

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#19

Post by funcDropShadow » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:45 AM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #9

loeg wrote: post #7

> Discriminatory harassment may be considered to violate this policy when it is so severe or pervasive, and objectively offensive, that it creates a work, educational, or living environment that a reasonable person would consider intimidating, hostile, or abusive In what contexts is (explicitly) calling for the genocide of Jews not objectively offensive or hostile? Maybe if you whisper it quietly in an empty room? I…

The phrase "reasonable person" does the heavy lifting here. A reasonable person should be able to understand that others have different opinions that may be distasteful or wrong. Unless those opinions are violent and directed at them personally, they are not hostile.

Calling for the genocide of Jews is context-dependent, but misgendering is always a hate crime?

Re: Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

#20

Post by BugsJustFindMe » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:45 AM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #10

olliej wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By conflating pro-palestine protests with pro-hamas you're no different from the anti-semitic assholes who use Israel's apartheid regime and their current genocide as a reason to hate all Jews. It is in fact possible to say "Hamas is bad" while still believing Palestinians are humans with the same rights the UN brought in as a result of things like the holocaust. It's also possible to go "given the decades of colonia…

>Terrorism is objectively wrong, but it is a predictable outcome of abusive and dehumanizing colonial behavior. And abusive and dehumanizing behavior is a predictable outcome of Terrorism. How do we break the cycle?

> How do we break the cycle?

Honestly? Through pro-getting-along propaganda subversively force-fed to everyone involved. Brainwashing people into hating each other less is probably the only way.