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No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying location, browsing data

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Re: No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying location, browsing data

#41

Post by krapp »

insickness wrote: post #9
cm2187 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intelligence agencies' very role is to break laws.

That's not true at all. Intelligence agencies can't just do whatever they want. They are beholden to the people just like every other government agency. They can be granted power to do things that ordinary people can't, but that doesn't mean they are above the law.

They can and they do. Look at the history - they routinely kidnap, torture, assassinate, spy on citizens, support all kinds of illegal activity and make unscrupulous deals with terrorists and tyrants. Every now and then they slip up and the government has to pretend to give a damn and they go through a show of righteous anger and then once the heat is off and constituents are satisfied the intelligence agencies go right back to doing what they were doing anyway.

The government doesn't want intelligence agencies reined in by anything but American interests. They want those agencies to be free do commit whatever evil is deemed necessary to further those interests, laws and Constitution be damned. The NSA is still spying on everyone. The CIA still runs torture camps around the world. Nothing changes. Snowden didn't change anything. Assange didn't change anything. Wyden isn't going to change anything.

The ability of the American people to hold their government to account in any meaningful way is a facade. Americans live under the oligarchy of corporations and the military industrial complex, not any kind of functional democracy. The American people, despite their guns and breathless evocations of the Founding Fathers, are not in control.

Re: No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying location, browsing data

#43

Post by OfSanguineFire »

cm2187 wrote: post #19
9dev wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An intelligence agency’s role is gathering intelligence on malevolent entities that threaten a country in some way. Not more, not less—but their role certainly isn’t breaking laws per se, or amassing data on the general public to engage in pre-policing. No matter how much certain parties may advocate for that, a democracy cannot exist in a surveillance state, and anyone convinced of that has lost democratic legitimac…

They equally gather information on friendly democracies, bribe or blackmail people, hack computers, they are involved in trade negotiations, watch what all the parties are doing in civil wars, etc. It's not a good guys vs bad guys, good vs evil thing. They are a limited exception to democratic governments abiding to the rule of law. They are hired thugs, "our thugs". And I am not disputing that they are necessary. Ju…

Gathering information on friendly democracies, or watching what all the parties are doing in civil wars, is not a violation of US law. Espionage between states is rarely a violation of the law of the state that is doing the espionage. The “friendly democracies” on which the US spies, are in turn gathering information on the states they consider friendly democracies.

Re: No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying location, browsing data

#44

Post by password4321 »

user3939382 wrote: post #23

I’d be surprised if they’re “buying browsing data” instead of just having a tap on all major ISPs and siphoning everything off directly, or compelling ISPs to do this with NSLs.

They get the data either way and it's all taxpayer funded.

Re: No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying location, browsing data

#46

Post by goblinux »

georgeg23 wrote: post #35
georgeg23 wrote: post #26

The main source that sells a continuous cross-platform civilian tracking dragnet (probably to the NSA) is Peter Thiel's company Palantir. Thiel is at the center of so much other sci-fi military industrial complex stuff, it's scary.

Update, actually NSA is a confirmed customer. https://techcrunch.com/2015/01/11/leaked-palantir-doc-reveal... The company's name is derived from The Lord of the Rings where the magical palantíri were "seeing-stones," described as indestructible balls of crystal used for communication and to see events in other parts of the world

The INSANE thing to me about naming your company Palantir after the artifact from Middle Earth is the story behind the seeing stones.

By the Third Age - when the events of the Lord of the Rings take place - several of the Palantiri (plural) are lost. The danger of using the stones was twofold: 1) not all the stones were accounted for, you couldn’t know who was listening in and 2) Sauron had one of the stones.

A dark lord who wanted to rule the world in fire and ash and darkness had this surveillance tool and used it to corrupt the other known users of the seeing stones, Denethor and Sauroman. That was the plot structure of these stones. Aragon and Merry/Pippin were able to use them against Sauron, who thought the hobbits with Aragorn might be Frodo. But again, to me this shows the danger of making decisions based on spying technology. Sauron committed his forces against Gondor because his intel told him and it led to his eye being distracted from Frodo/Sam/Gollum sneaking over the mountains and into Mt. Doom.

Why you would name your surveillance company after that is beyond me. To me it would be like getting aboard a plane run by Icarus airlines or naming the next big boat/plane/rocketship Titanic.

Re: No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying location, browsing data

#47

Post by AnimalMuppet »

master-lincoln wrote: post #38
jerpint wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very likely common practice by many other governments

what makes you think so?

The United States is this limited government, with strict limits on what it's allowed to do.

Yeah, I know. It hasn't worked out that way. But do you think other governments, starting with fewer restraints, are doing less than the US? Or more?

I could see saying that the US is doing it in higher volume, because it's got more money to spend on government excess.

Re: No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying location, browsing data

#48

Post by skummetmaelk »

georgeg23 wrote: post #26

The main source that sells a continuous cross-platform civilian tracking dragnet (probably to the NSA) is Peter Thiel's company Palantir. Thiel is at the center of so much other sci-fi military industrial complex stuff, it's scary.

Thiel is the closest we have to a comic book villain honestly. I find it incredible that he mostly manages to stay under the radar. Maybe it's just because all Musk's antics are easier to cover.

Re: No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying location, browsing data

#49

Post by gordian-mind »

goblinux wrote: post #46
georgeg23 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Update, actually NSA is a confirmed customer. https://techcrunch.com/2015/01/11/leaked-palantir-doc-reveal... The company's name is derived from The Lord of the Rings where the magical palantíri were "seeing-stones," described as indestructible balls of crystal used for communication and to see events in other parts of the world

The INSANE thing to me about naming your company Palantir after the artifact from Middle Earth is the story behind the seeing stones. By the Third Age - when the events of the Lord of the Rings take place - several of the Palantiri (plural) are lost. The danger of using the stones was twofold: 1) not all the stones were accounted for, you couldn’t know who was listening in and 2) Sauron had one of the stones. A dark…

This is just a nerdy reference to the activity of gathering intelligence.

> But again, to me this shows the danger of making decisions based on spying technology.

Having more information is rarely a bad thing for making decisions. So that was probably not the point.

Re: No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying location, browsing data

#50

Post by AnimalMuppet »

School-Cotton wrote: post #11
insickness wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true at all. Intelligence agencies can't just do whatever they want. They are beholden to the people just like every other government agency. They can be granted power to do things that ordinary people can't, but that doesn't mean they are above the law.

Yes they can do whatever they want and no they’re not beholden to anyone. When has the NSA ever been held accountable for their illegal spying on US citizens?

They're beholden to Congress funding them, if nothing else.
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