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To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

wsj.com

41–50 of 190 posts

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#42
post #24

Meta: What is it about this post that attracted so many flippant comments? Non-meta: Why does the US have so few of these ships? Were more just not produced? I didn’t see an answer in the article but it’s possible I missed it.

Non-meta Answer from user @bruce511: "Russia doesn't have much in the way of non-polar coast (well, not today European end) so they've been breaking ice since forever. The US by comparison has very little polar coast and so less need for icebreakers."

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#44

Makes me wonder how much manufacturing knowledge has been lost in the west, and how long it might take to rediscover it all. Does anyone know of any good sources on this?

Not the same industry, but here is an article in the WSJ about declining numbers of petroleum engineers: https://www.wsj.com/articles/big-oils-talent-crisis-high-sal...

"Big Oil’s Talent Crisis: High Salaries Are No Longer Enough

Energy companies scramble to attract engineers as young workers fret over climate and job security

Good news from the oil patch: Jobs are plentiful and salaries are soaring.

The bad news is that young people still aren’t interested.

Even as oil-and-gas companies post record profits, the industry is facing a worsening talent drought.

At U.S. colleges, the pool of new entrants for petroleum-engineering programs has shrunk to its smallest size since before the fracking boom began more than a decade ago. European universities, which have historically provided many of the engineers for companies with operations across the Middle East and Asia, are seeing similar trends.

...."

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#45
post #5

"This new idea could reduce steel’s carbon emissions by 90%" https://www.freethink.com/energy/decarbonizing-steel Why is steel necessary for ships? From "Plant-based epoxy enables recyclable carbon fiber" (2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30138954 : > And once it’s completed you have an insanely strong material that makes steel look weak and brittle. It’s reported to be as much as ten times stronger than st…

The problem with carbon fiber and epoxy composites. Once it cracks, you cannot repair it, easily. It relies on a continuous composite structure. You can't patch it because that patchwork joint will just be a weak spot. So you are talking about writing off tens of millions of dollars of a boat just because someone lost control and hit something too hard. Steel is infinitely repairable, cut out the damaged section and…

The other big drawback is that damaged composites attend to violently fall to pieces, where metal would bend.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally speaking, states try to avoid having critical dependencies on other states, because they become points of leverage for adversarial foreign policy. For the purposes of keeping America running, yes, we really do need to own icebreakers in the same way that we need to own powerplants, steel mills, chip foundries and and refineries.

But then market pressures for efficiency will lead to mergers and acquisitions...

Versus being quite literally held hostage by a non-cooperating foreign power for political gain?

Things like energy independence sound cute and quaint until you find yourself being taken advantage of at best, or ground to a halt during armed conflict at worst.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#47

Makes me wonder how much manufacturing knowledge has been lost in the west, and how long it might take to rediscover it all. Does anyone know of any good sources on this?

It's the skills that are lost. The knowledge is safe in print.

There's a lot of practical/contextual knowledge that isn't documented, and what's documented isn't guaranteed to be correct or can be misleading (terminology changes, standards change, some things are implied because they are obvious at the time, etc.)

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#48
Does USA even have civilian dry docks to build ships? I thought everything was outsourced to Korea.

I know it can build military vessels, but at horribly slow pace. Australia will get their nuclear submarines some time in 2040. I can not imagine building civilian nuclear ice breakers in US.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#49

Do we really need to OWN icebreakers? Maybe we could start a website where countries and companies who own icebreakers can operate them for the benefit of other countries and companies who want to use them. They just walk to the shore in the Canadian north, click the "Call Icebreaker" button on the app and wait for an icebreaker someone else owns to arrive.

> Do we really need to OWN icebreakers?

That would depend on one's strategic goals and priorities. Personally, I do not believe the US should be the world police so I don't think it is necessary.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#50
post #26

> designers, engineers and welders grapple with something the U.S. hasn’t done in decades: reliably shape hardened steel that is more than an inch thick into a curved, reinforced ship’s hull I don't understand. Aren't modern military ships armoured anymore?

The thick steel (like the landing deck of an aircraft carrier) is flat not curved. The curved stuff is actually Kevlar, not steel.
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