41–50 of 121 posts
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> Not to mention that the eastern roman empire was far more impressive that than the western roman empire. What's your argument for this?
Running for a thousand years longer might have something to do with it
The runtime might have been much shorter without the theodosian walls as well
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They will never fully convert back to a mosque, absolutely no way they want the loss of tourism that will result from making probably the most iconic draw for tourism to the city a place that isn't open to the public in all respects. Last time I was there a few years ago I recall there's a small section near one of the lower galleries off to the side that has been reopened for use as a sort-of-mosque but it's the siz…
I've been several times over the last decade, and you've missed the most recent changes: As of my last trip a couple weeks ago it's now pretty heavily leaned into the mosque angle, with you having to take off your shoes to enter just like any other mosque, and they also covered up the stucco depictions of humans inside with large tapestries. It's still aggressively available to the public, but you're not going to see…
Did they cover up the frescoes in the pendentives of the main dome that depict the (very much non-human looking) seraphim?
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> Istanbul is in the same league with London, Paris, Rome London and Paris do not belong on that list. Rome is on another level. Paris and London are a few levels below somewhere. Heck I'd say istanbul is a level above rome since the turks added onto constantinople and added a richness and extra layer that rome never got. Not to mention that the eastern roman empire was far more impressive that than the western roman…
Turkey is not a muslim turkic nation at all, Turkey is an ethnically diverse nation where almost all the population claims to be muslims but they all practice at different levels and the devote muslims are a small minority of the population. The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries, thus was influenced by western values for hundreds of years already. Then Atatürk…
It's a predominantly islamic turkish speaking nation. You say 'almost all the population claims to be muslim' and say it's not a muslim nation?
> The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries
No. The ottoman empire was a legacy of the turkish nation. It's why the ottoman empire is also called the turkish empire. The nation predates the empire. Just like britain to british empire back to britain.
> The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries, thus was influenced by western values for hundreds of years already.
'Western values' is a post ww2 neo-colonial nonsense invented in the last few decades to justify our continuing invasion of the 3rd world. It hasn't existed for 'hundreds of years' just like 'the west' hasn't existed for hundreds of years. Also, the ottoman empire was a conquering empire that did more exporting of 'values' than importing of it from europe. For hundreds of years, the ottomans had the upper hand. It's only the weaken turkish nation that start adopting european science, technology, etc after their empire was destroyed by 'the west'.
> I think you need to update your understanding of Turkey,
No. I think I have a fairly strong grasp of turkish history. Thanks.
> it's very lacking and almost offensively shallow.
Says the person who thinks being being turkic or muslim is worse than being 'western'. I'm saying turkey should be proud of who they are. You are saying they should be embarrassed by who they are and try to mimic 'superior' westerners. Isn't that the gist?
I've nothing against turkish people or muslims. Though you certainly seem to have something against them.
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> Istanbul is in the same league with London, Paris, Rome London and Paris do not belong on that list. Rome is on another level. Paris and London are a few levels below somewhere. Heck I'd say istanbul is a level above rome since the turks added onto constantinople and added a richness and extra layer that rome never got. Not to mention that the eastern roman empire was far more impressive that than the western roman…
> Good. Considering turkey isn't a western nation... You should read some Turkish history. After the fall of the Ottoman empire, and being divided up amongst various winners of WWI, the modern Turkey led by Ataturk reclaimed their lost territory and established a country based on overtly western principles. The reforms were deep, and sweeping: A new alphabet, to make Turkish more approachable to people used to Latin…
If china adopts latin script does that make china a member of the West? Of course not. 'The West' is called that for a reason. It's predominantly western ( the west ) european nations and their genetic colonial descendents ( aka colonies that have predominantly european blood, power ). We could adopt chinese as our official language and the US would still be a western nation. Religion, script, separation of church and state has nothing to do with being part of the west.
> There have been growing pains, but dismissing Turkey as "not western" is an extremely politically charged statement.
No. Saying they are western is politically charged statement. Saying Turkey is not a western nation is a statement of fact. You act like 'the west' is some club with membership requirements. It's not. It's a legacy of european colonization and domination of the world. Something Turkey was a victim of, not part of.
The only reason some claim Turkey is part of the West is due to geopolitical posturing. Just like some claiming kazakhstan is part of europe.
The Hagia Sophia "mosque" was a Christian orthodox church that dates from Roman times and was a secular museum from the 1930s until 2020. That decision to reclassify as a mosque is widely condemned by historians and others.
Nice use of scare quotes but that's false. It has been a mosque from 1453 until the 1930s. I have to say, I'm seeing this kind of "byzantine fake news" more and more on HN threads related to Islamic history.
The Hagia Sophia was indeed a church. The Hagia Sophia was also indeed a museum. The reconversion into a Mosque was also widely criticized.
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> Istanbul is in the same league with London, Paris, Rome London and Paris do not belong on that list. Rome is on another level. Paris and London are a few levels below somewhere. Heck I'd say istanbul is a level above rome since the turks added onto constantinople and added a richness and extra layer that rome never got. Not to mention that the eastern roman empire was far more impressive that than the western roman…
> Good. Considering turkey isn't a western nation... You should read some Turkish history. After the fall of the Ottoman empire, and being divided up amongst various winners of WWI, the modern Turkey led by Ataturk reclaimed their lost territory and established a country based on overtly western principles. The reforms were deep, and sweeping: A new alphabet, to make Turkish more approachable to people used to Latin…
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Nice use of scare quotes but that's false. It has been a mosque from 1453 until the 1930s. I have to say, I'm seeing this kind of "byzantine fake news" more and more on HN threads related to Islamic history.
It was the premier eastern orthodox christian church for a 1000 years before that and taken by conquest. Of course some people are still salty about that. It would be like the Jews turning Mecca into a synagogue or st peters basilica being turned into a mosque
My understanding is that: (a) the three big Abrahamic religions all place the most emphasis on worshiping as a congregation on different days and (b) among each group, a minority of people who identify with the label actually go to worship with a congregation regularly. Would it really be _so_ bad if you had one big fancy palace which switched from hosting Muslims on Friday, Jews on Saturday, Christians on Sunday and could be a museum / community space / charity space Mon-Thurs?
A bit tangential, but while choosing a logo idea for Rust Istanbul community, I went with something that resembles blue tile tulip motif. As another commenter noted there are so many objects/animals/historical artifacts to choose from... https://rustistanbul.org/ If you are a Rust developer and planning to visit Istanbul let us know! (We know good kebap/baklava places ;) )
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I've been several times over the last decade, and you've missed the most recent changes: As of my last trip a couple weeks ago it's now pretty heavily leaned into the mosque angle, with you having to take off your shoes to enter just like any other mosque, and they also covered up the stucco depictions of humans inside with large tapestries. It's still aggressively available to the public, but you're not going to see…
It sounds like I did miss quite a lot of change, as of 2016 or 2017 I could still walk around pretty much anywhere on both levels and all of the main frescoes were still exposed (although a lot of material was still covered under plaster ... ostensibly for preservation). there was an minbar bar in the apse but it was skewed at an odd angle in a way that looked like it hadnt been used in quite a long time. Did they co…
They converted it to a mosque in 2020.
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It was the premier eastern orthodox christian church for a 1000 years before that and taken by conquest. Of course some people are still salty about that. It would be like the Jews turning Mecca into a synagogue or st peters basilica being turned into a mosque
As a non-religious person, I find the indignation about the idea of turning one flavor of house of worship to the god of Abraham into another flavor of house of worship to the god of Abraham to be pretty amusing. And when it happens, it seems so spiteful! Last year I saw the Mosque-Cathedral of Cordoba, and I was struck that the Catholics seemed to be stuffing figurative art _everywhere_, and I guessed it was partly…
As for an interfaith building, it's an interesting thought. There might be issues with ceremonies such as weddings, funerals, and events. There is the Abrahamic Family House in Abu Dhabi, but it's not a single building. I thought something like this might exist in Jerusalem, but I couldn't find any..