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U.S. SEC sees decentralized crypto platforms as exchanges

reuters.com

41–50 of 81 posts

Re: U.S. SEC sees decentralized crypto platforms as exchanges

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since Russia has lots of energy, maybe they can use it to settle transactions? Meanwhile Visa keeps on clearing incomparably more (by “several orders of magnitude”) encrypted transactions per second globally for miniscule energy?

I’d be very surprised if Visa can clear transactions with less energy than Ethereum Proof of Stake requires. https://ethereum.org/en/energy-consumption/ The energy argument is correct for proof of work, not proof of stake.

Everything I've read suggests the Visa network only processes ~5-10k transactions per second, which you could do on a single modest server. It is apparently built to handle up to 75k TPS[0]. Certainly it should be doable with less than 300 kW average.

[0] https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/global/about-visa/documents/vi...

Re: U.S. SEC sees decentralized crypto platforms as exchanges

#42
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think energy consumption was ever actually a virtue of the people who complained about it. It was just a means to an end for curbing crypto and it's grifts.

Yeah it was: the energy cost (as in electric bill) to settle transactions is so large that all but huge transactions are money losers. Anyway, that was the concern. It contrasts with the fee set by percentage of transaction size used by Visa.

And people in locations with big crypto farms can feel the hit in their own energy bills. Even people who never even heard of crypto will start to care when it hits their own pocketbook.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/09/business/bitcoin-mining-e...

> In Texas, where 10 of the 34 mines are connected to the state’s grid, the increased demand has caused electric bills for power customers to rise nearly 5 percent, or $1.8 billion per year

> The program pays miners, and other companies, for promising to stop using electricity upon request. In reality, they are rarely asked to shut down, but are still paid for making the pledge.

> From midnight to nearly 4 p.m. on June 23, Riot earned more than $42,000 from the program while continuing to mine Bitcoin. (Overall in 2022, Riot made nearly $9.3 million from participating in the program nearly 85 percent of the time, the data shows, though the grid operator asked companies to actually lower their use for about 3.5 hours.)

> Around that time, the company switched to the second technique: avoiding fees that Texas charges to maintain and strengthen the power grid. It did so by briefly shutting off almost completely.

> To incentivize big customers to conserve electricity, those fees are based on how much electricity they use during several peak summer moments. Riot reduced its power use by more than 99 percent.

> By 6:30 p.m., the company had resumed mining. If Riot had been fully operating all day, it would have incurred an estimated $5.5 million in fees — costs that are largely made up by other Texans. Over the course of the year, this saved Riot more than $27 million in potential fees.

> One final mechanism lets some companies make extra money when electricity prices spike: They can stop mining and resell electricity to other customers. That earned Riot roughly $18 million last year.

Re: U.S. SEC sees decentralized crypto platforms as exchanges

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since Russia has lots of energy, maybe they can use it to settle transactions? Meanwhile Visa keeps on clearing incomparably more (by “several orders of magnitude”) encrypted transactions per second globally for miniscule energy?

I’d be very surprised if Visa can clear transactions with less energy than Ethereum Proof of Stake requires. https://ethereum.org/en/energy-consumption/ The energy argument is correct for proof of work, not proof of stake.

I would be very surprised if it didn't. Ethereum still has to deal with a hugely distribuited database updating all nodes, where VISA only has to update however many copies they keep, which will certainly be order of magnitudes less. Both of course would be much cheaper then Proof of Work systems.

Re: U.S. SEC sees decentralized crypto platforms as exchanges

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d be very surprised if Visa can clear transactions with less energy than Ethereum Proof of Stake requires. https://ethereum.org/en/energy-consumption/ The energy argument is correct for proof of work, not proof of stake.

Everything else held equal it will always take more energy to have multiple computers ready to verify transactions, as well as the computational overhead of determining on the fly which computer actually will verify which transaction, than to have one computer verifying transactions. From your own link, PoS Ethereum is 1/30,000 the energy cost of PoW Ethereum. From this link ( https://arxiv.org/pdf/2203.03717.pdf ),…

I think you're ignoring the energy spent on physical buildings, cars, and vehicles that power the banking/credit-card complex.

Re: U.S. SEC sees decentralized crypto platforms as exchanges

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decentralized exchanges are... exactly not that. They only trade on-chain assets for on-chain assets. Fiat ramps are not part of what makes a decentralized exchange.

Which means those exchanges are, until crypto becomes a mainstream payment method for everyday stuff, completely pointless. And, as a result, crypto as well.

> until crypto becomes a mainstream payment method for everyday stuff

It sucks that this hasn't happened already. Monero pretty much just works, the technology is already there. People insist on treating cryptocurrencies like stocks instead.

Re: U.S. SEC sees decentralized crypto platforms as exchanges

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, because the major service that exchanges provide is to convert between crypto and cash. The tremendous growth seen in the industry over the last few years was fueled by an influx of cash into the crypto markets by way of exchanges. Dealing in cash means managing some sort of bank or brokerage account, which falls under federal purview.

DeFi platforms do not deal with cash. Everything has to be on chain.

So how does one get a token on one of these platforms?

I certainly won’t pay cash for a token!

Re: U.S. SEC sees decentralized crypto platforms as exchanges

#47
post #15

Can't decentralized exchanges be completely anonymous? If a user sends some ETH to an adress and on some Bitcoin address a balance shows up - how would the SEC want to regulate that? Let alone exchanges that are just a contract on Ethereum and only exchange tokens on the Etherum blockchain. What is the SEC going to do about those? And what would happen if some country in the world tokenizes their property. Say a cert…

SEC can force all the exchanges that have US customers to blacklist any crypto that touches those addresses.

Re: U.S. SEC sees decentralized crypto platforms as exchanges

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d be very surprised if Visa can clear transactions with less energy than Ethereum Proof of Stake requires. https://ethereum.org/en/energy-consumption/ The energy argument is correct for proof of work, not proof of stake.

Everything else held equal it will always take more energy to have multiple computers ready to verify transactions, as well as the computational overhead of determining on the fly which computer actually will verify which transaction, than to have one computer verifying transactions. From your own link, PoS Ethereum is 1/30,000 the energy cost of PoW Ethereum. From this link ( https://arxiv.org/pdf/2203.03717.pdf ),…

What's the average transaction fee for Ethereum versus visa?

Re: U.S. SEC sees decentralized crypto platforms as exchanges

#49
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think energy consumption was ever actually a virtue of the people who complained about it. It was just a means to an end for curbing crypto and it's grifts.

It's why when I first read about crypto back in 2013 or so I thought about getting into Peercoin whenever I had the money to do so. And it's why years later, when I finally had the money to do so, I never bought any crypto, even when FOMO was hitting hard. It's why I stopped taking late night drives in my car to wind down, instead taking walks. And why I try to drive to maximize fuel efficiency. It's why I felt guilt…

I did that too for the first 30 years of my life.

Then I realized that I was compromising my own life, making sacrifices, and effectively giving away my power to the people who don't care.

So I changed tactics, and bought a jeep.

Re: U.S. SEC sees decentralized crypto platforms as exchanges

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing the security of visa transactions to crypto is laughable. The IRS literally had a bounty out for anyone that could trace monero. Meanwhile, seizing money from traditional bank accounts and tracking credit card transactions is an every day chore for the government.

> tracking credit card transactions is an every day chore for the government. In what sense? Credit card companies manage their own fraud mitigation per federal law, which makes it easy for consumers to dispute transactions. If someone gets my crypto wallet PK and withdraws everything, who do I dispute that with? No way to reverse transactions in BTC.

Non-reversible transactions are a feature not a bug.

If you want protection against that, get insurance.

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