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Street fighting engineers vs. martial arts engineers

ravitejakanta.substack.com

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Re: Street fighting engineers vs. martial arts engineers

#41

Post by neon_electro »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #38

I really like this dichotomy. Over time I'm becoming more and more aware of non-skill factors that affect my impact. I'm definitely more a street fighter, and I feel limited when I'm given martial artist work and there is very little opportunity for street fighter work. I think it can be very difficult to be a 10x engineer because you have to be in an org that has the right type of work, be on a team that's involved…

Thank you for illustrating just how much the myth of the "10x engineer" has as much to do with the individual as it does the system that individual works in.

Re: Street fighting engineers vs. martial arts engineers

#43

Post by ZephyrBlu »

lazy_afternoons wrote: post #18
xupybd wrote: post #8

I struggle to understand what insight is gained from this article. Can anyone explain how this could be useful?

Honestly, it was just an observation. IMO, the street fighting skill is a bit less known. I worked for a unicorn which had ZERO managers and ZERO Product managers. The engineers had to speak to the users, write the roadmaps, build stuff and report to the founder. I realised this skill was rare among engineers and less talked about. Initially, I titled this "Street fighting engineers", it eventually evolved into this.

My guess as to why the archetype isn't as well known is because you can absorb most of the chaos with a very small number of people.

Unless these people make their role known, most other people don't see all the firefighting that they do.

Re: Street fighting engineers vs. martial arts engineers

#44

Post by neilv »

dgunay wrote: post #36
darod wrote: post #26

first "code ninjas" now "street fighting" engineers and "martial art" engineers? really? I feel like these monikers are getting a little silly especially since you'd never see the reverse.

reminds me a bit of this Elon Musk tweet: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1527774704018280448?s=20

He has an interesting mix of good ideas and bad ideas.

Which is good and bad, in a society in which he can do almost anything he wants, and almost no one will tell him no.

Re: Street fighting engineers vs. martial arts engineers

#45

Post by lazy_afternoons »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #38

I really like this dichotomy. Over time I'm becoming more and more aware of non-skill factors that affect my impact. I'm definitely more a street fighter, and I feel limited when I'm given martial artist work and there is very little opportunity for street fighter work. I think it can be very difficult to be a 10x engineer because you have to be in an org that has the right type of work, be on a team that's involved…

> I think it can be very difficult to be a 10x engineer because you have to be in an org that has the right type of work, be on a team that's involved in that work, and be in a role in which you're given that work.

Agreed. I noticed that 10x engineers are a product of 10x workplaces. Orgs have insane ability to take the most skilled engineers and make them unproductive.

Re: Street fighting engineers vs. martial arts engineers

#46

Post by ZephyrBlu »

neon_electro wrote: post #41
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #38

I really like this dichotomy. Over time I'm becoming more and more aware of non-skill factors that affect my impact. I'm definitely more a street fighter, and I feel limited when I'm given martial artist work and there is very little opportunity for street fighter work. I think it can be very difficult to be a 10x engineer because you have to be in an org that has the right type of work, be on a team that's involved…

Thank you for illustrating just how much the myth of the "10x engineer" has as much to do with the individual as it does the system that individual works in.

Couple of great blog posts on this topic:

- https://erikbern.com/2016/01/08/i-believe-in-the-10x-enginee...

- https://erikbern.com/2019/02/21/headcount-targets-feature-fa...

Re: Street fighting engineers vs. martial arts engineers

#47

Post by bayindirh »

zanethomas wrote: post #37

Most martial arts are worthless in a real street fight.

I have seen the opposite. I’m a martial arts style programmer, who is put into environments where street fighting is considered more ethical than what I had to put up with.

Being able to craft quick and dirty solutions which are diluted versions of my normal code solved tons of problems. Since I see programming as a craft, I had an intuition about where I can cut corners without affecting the quality most of the time, and I can add the corner back if the opportunity arises.

A martial arts practitioner with a flexible mind is a formidable force.

Re: Street fighting engineers vs. martial arts engineers

#48

Post by virtualritz »

A friend of mine who's both a kick ass engineer and great product manager once told me this analogy, which is employing similar to the one in the article:

"For any software project to succeed, you need three types of developers:

The kamikaze. They kick off the project, they don't care about the mountain on the horizon or the abyss less than ten clicks ahead. They get everyone on board and they will also give the column directions and keep them on track.

The soldier. They just march on and on. They may take longer to solve a problem, but they don't tire. They keep at it.

The sniper. Any really difficult issue they will just take out. But they need calm and solitude to do their deed."

Re: Street fighting engineers vs. martial arts engineers

#49

Post by ajb »

neilv wrote: post #21
ajb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, I feel like a lot of these laudatory adjectives like "scrappy" and "street smart" are often just ways to excuse product owners, designers and execs making crappy decisions and throwing them over the wall to engineers to sort out. YMMV, of course.

I suspect that a scrappy organization wouldn't have a wall to toss anything over. If a wall did accidentally appear in a scrappy org, maybe the wall gets knocked over, and the trash collegially tossed back, with an offer to work together on something that will work? Stereotypical lumbering bureaucracies can appropriate terms all day, and people mimicking them can also mimic their appropriations, and management books…

I think I'm taking about a different failure mode. To have a "wall" you don't need a large organisation, just leadership that has certain blindspots or beliefs that they don't allow to be challenged. (I know I'm being a bit vague, I can't go into the specifics unfortunately).

Re: Street fighting engineers vs. martial arts engineers

#50

Post by AdieuToLogic »

zanethomas wrote: post #37

Most martial arts are worthless in a real street fight.

In "a real street fight", the person who can extend combat such that they minimize immediate threats as well as deliver maximum damage to their opponents when possible typically will come out the other side better.

These are techniques martial arts teach. A "street fighter" might have some tricks up their sleeve, but a martial artist is better equipped to handle arbitrary conflicts they may find themselves in.

Neither guarantees success in a fight.

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