Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Street fighting engineers vs. martial arts engineers

ravitejakanta.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 72 posts

Re: Street fighting engineers vs. martial arts engineers

#21

Post by neilv »

ajb wrote: post #14
neilv wrote: post #3

I kinda like this analogy, though the idea of street fighting is pretty unsavory in real life. Whereas Martial Artist in the article's analogy is like suburban children's Karate classes leading to later study for organized sports competitions and exhibitions. (BTW, IIUC, there are other kinds of study of martial arts, including people who focus on internal development separate from external accomplishments.) Even tho…

I don't know, I feel like a lot of these laudatory adjectives like "scrappy" and "street smart" are often just ways to excuse product owners, designers and execs making crappy decisions and throwing them over the wall to engineers to sort out. YMMV, of course.

I suspect that a scrappy organization wouldn't have a wall to toss anything over.

If a wall did accidentally appear in a scrappy org, maybe the wall gets knocked over, and the trash collegially tossed back, with an offer to work together on something that will work?

Stereotypical lumbering bureaucracies can appropriate terms all day, and people mimicking them can also mimic their appropriations, and management books can be marketed, all while ignoring the actual useful meaning of the terms.

Re: Street fighting engineers vs. martial arts engineers

#22

Post by neilv »

Swizec wrote: post #7
neilv wrote: post #3

I kinda like this analogy, though the idea of street fighting is pretty unsavory in real life. Whereas Martial Artist in the article's analogy is like suburban children's Karate classes leading to later study for organized sports competitions and exhibitions. (BTW, IIUC, there are other kinds of study of martial arts, including people who focus on internal development separate from external accomplishments.) Even tho…

My favorite part of boxing is that it’s a very honest martial art. If you punch the other person more than they punch you, you win. Even the most technical coach will tell you that all the technique and philosophy we train is just there to improve your chances. When you’re in the ring, forget the theory, do what works (within the rules). If your instinct says to throw a weird punch at a weird time, do it. You probabl…

Hence the sayings "Everybody has a plan until they get hit in the face" and "The enemy gets a vote". There's a lot of truth to this.

I suppose we have to be careful not to rationalize mindless flailing, when we should be keeping our heads and mixing levels of intuition and thinking appropriate to the occasion. (Rather than throw random things at a customer each sprint, and purely react, we can be smarter about what we throw. Also, a one-week sprint isn't about acting in the moment of a hundredth of a second.)

Re: Street fighting engineers vs. martial arts engineers

#23

Post by Swizec »

neilv wrote: post #22
Swizec wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite part of boxing is that it’s a very honest martial art. If you punch the other person more than they punch you, you win. Even the most technical coach will tell you that all the technique and philosophy we train is just there to improve your chances. When you’re in the ring, forget the theory, do what works (within the rules). If your instinct says to throw a weird punch at a weird time, do it. You probabl…

Hence the sayings "Everybody has a plan until they get hit in the face" and "The enemy gets a vote". There's a lot of truth to this. I suppose we have to be careful not to rationalize mindless flailing, when we should be keeping our heads and mixing levels of intuition and thinking appropriate to the occasion. (Rather than throw random things at a customer each sprint, and purely react, we can be smarter about what w…

> not to rationalize mindless flailing, when we should be keeping our heads and mixing levels of intuition and thinking appropriate to the occasion

This is true. When two experienced boxers (even ones who never compete) face off, it’s like a chess match. Both thinking five steps ahead and it’s as beautiful to watch as it is fun to experience.

But never underestimate the beginner. They will hurt you in the first 30 seconds because they’re scared and don’t realize their own strength. Then after 30 seconds they’re out of steam and you can do your thing … if your head’s still on.

Re: Street fighting engineers vs. martial arts engineers

#29

Post by angarg12 »

Fun analogy, but let's look at the Martial Artist environment

> There are basic ground rules (clear requirements) which the opponents (problems) are NOT allowed to break. eg: below the belt punches, (changing priorities every week) etc.

Who does get to work in such an environment? I can only think of:

* Academia

* Artificial environments (e.g. leetcode, coding competitions)

* MAYBE very mature products in established companies

For the vast majority of us changing requirements, unknown unknowns and technology shifts are our daily bread. Big, unchanging upfront design doesn't work, and we've known this for several decades now.

Post reply on HN