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Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws

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Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws

#41

Post by marcusverus »

deserialized wrote: post #28
TexanFeller wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong worker protections are a major reason that big tech and many other industries have a much smaller presence in Europe and pay far less to Europeans. You're worth less if you might be absent on parental leave for a year at a time. You're higher risk to hire if you can't be fired easily etc. Protections have a cost. My friends that moved to UK/Europe get half their former salary and have much higher living expens…

Maybe if you're from FAANG land. I took 10k cut (90k to 80k) from my salary leaving Seattle but gained a union, 20 more days of vacation, a 8% holiday bonus, 90% cheaper insurance, and 500$ less in rent per month in Amsterdam

Your pay cut wasn't significant because you apparently went from earning a ~40th percentile US SWE salary to earning a ~90th percentile Dutch SWE salary. If you had been paid a ~40th percentile Dutche SWE salary, you would have taken a 50% pay cut.

My percentiles are based on Payscale data.

Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws

#42

Post by cr1895 »

TexanFeller wrote: post #25
hsjqllzlfkf wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's related, maybe it's due to the fact that the cost of almost everything in the US is higher. There's many factors in this conversation

> the cost of almost everything in the US is higher Certainly not compared to Europe/UK. I have friends that moved there and have spent many weeks over there myself. Property, living expenses, taxes, and many goods are generally noticeably higher over there.

To counter your anecdote with mine, I’m always shocked whenever I return to visit the US how expensive basic things like groceries and rent are. Much more so than the Netherlands.

This is complicated, and it’s insufficient just to state that everything in Europe is generally more expensive than in the US.

Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws

#43

Post by ActorNightly »

aseerdbnarng wrote: post #32

How daft do you have to be go on a hiring binge in Europe without looking into the labour laws. These laws didn't just fall out the sky last Tuesday

You assume that they hired with eventual plan of firing. Thats not the case. They hired because opportunity cost of not hiring was too high.

Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws

#44

Post by ActorNightly »

deserialized wrote: post #28
TexanFeller wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong worker protections are a major reason that big tech and many other industries have a much smaller presence in Europe and pay far less to Europeans. You're worth less if you might be absent on parental leave for a year at a time. You're higher risk to hire if you can't be fired easily etc. Protections have a cost. My friends that moved to UK/Europe get half their former salary and have much higher living expens…

Maybe if you're from FAANG land. I took 10k cut (90k to 80k) from my salary leaving Seattle but gained a union, 20 more days of vacation, a 8% holiday bonus, 90% cheaper insurance, and 500$ less in rent per month in Amsterdam

You took way more than $10k cut when you consider taxes involved.

Of course this varies state by state, but generally for tech, you net more in US on the average even when you pay for everything that you get with taxes in EU. Starting salaries even outside fang could easily be in like $130k in areas that aren't tech hubs and don't have an inflated COL - in EU this is unheard of.

Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws

#45

Post by kramerger »

TexanFeller wrote: post #22
wdb wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excessive vacations? What do you mean? It's not impossible to fire you only need a good cause to do so which I find reasonable.

A good reason that often doesn't qualify is that business is down, macroeconomic conditions are expected to be unfavorable for the foreseeable future, and expenses, which for many businesses are dominated by salaries, need to be cut ASAP to ensure the business' long term survival and prosperity. Like now. Businesses in Europe simply have fewer options, like it's much harder to cut early and cut deep(hopefully minimiz…

Union negotiations are about how to organise the layoffs, not whether you can fire the workforce or not.

And if you expect help from the government, you need to show that your layoffs actually have a chance to make your company survive. For example, you cannot fire the entire R&D when you are 1 year from product release.

Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws

#46

Post by kar5pt »

ActorNightly wrote: post #43
aseerdbnarng wrote: post #32

How daft do you have to be go on a hiring binge in Europe without looking into the labour laws. These laws didn't just fall out the sky last Tuesday

You assume that they hired with eventual plan of firing. Thats not the case. They hired because opportunity cost of not hiring was too high.

They should have known that an economic downturn was possible and planned for it. Wtf do these C-level execs get paid millions of dollars for?

Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws

#47

Post by ActorNightly »

kar5pt wrote: post #46
ActorNightly wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume that they hired with eventual plan of firing. Thats not the case. They hired because opportunity cost of not hiring was too high.

They should have known that an economic downturn was possible and planned for it. Wtf do these C-level execs get paid millions of dollars for?

Preparing means potentially missing out on revenue during the time before the downturn, a.k.a the opportunity cost that I mentioned.

Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws

#48

Post by kevviiinn »

kar5pt wrote: post #46
ActorNightly wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume that they hired with eventual plan of firing. Thats not the case. They hired because opportunity cost of not hiring was too high.

They should have known that an economic downturn was possible and planned for it. Wtf do these C-level execs get paid millions of dollars for?

They get paid for lining the pockets of shareholders as effectively as possible quarter to quarter

Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws

#49

Post by [deleted] »

cr1895 wrote: post #42
TexanFeller wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the cost of almost everything in the US is higher Certainly not compared to Europe/UK. I have friends that moved there and have spent many weeks over there myself. Property, living expenses, taxes, and many goods are generally noticeably higher over there.

To counter your anecdote with mine, I’m always shocked whenever I return to visit the US how expensive basic things like groceries and rent are. Much more so than the Netherlands. This is complicated, and it’s insufficient just to state that everything in Europe is generally more expensive than in the US.

[deleted]

Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws

#50

Post by dantheman »

refurb wrote: post #11
ibnbutlAn wrote: post #3

EU labor laws protect the workers. I dont get why US Americans often think these laws dont benefit the workers.

Just like rent control does more than just "control the price of rent" because landlords change their behavior to optimize their financial returns, so do labor laws. Strong worker protection ends up making the cost of hiring new workers higher. Companies react to those costs by a number of means like delaying hiring, hiring contractors first, firing within the probation period when they might not have normally, etc,…

There's definitely a right and wrong - it is morally wrong to use force to enrich yourself at the expense of others.

In the case of rent control -- landlords and future renters suffer. In the case the employment -- it's employers and future workers.

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