Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I've had a few European teammates, and they usually come to the U.S. because they can make 3-5x what they could in Europe. And as we know, the only difference between us and Europe is labor laws. /s
I've worked with many UK/Europeans. They are quite similar to us in skills and productivity aside from labor laws(excessive vacations, months/years of parental leave, impossible to fire etc.)
Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws
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Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've worked with many UK/Europeans. They are quite similar to us in skills and productivity aside from labor laws(excessive vacations, months/years of parental leave, impossible to fire etc.)
Excessive vacations? What do you mean? It's not impossible to fire you only need a good cause to do so which I find reasonable.
Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws
#23Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws
#24EU labor laws protect the workers. I dont get why US Americans often think these laws dont benefit the workers.
If you need labour laws beyond basic safety stuff then you're simply not being paid enough.
I would far rather have sufficient income and therefore wealth built to be able to choose for myself whether I want to take time off.
I actually find it juvenile that people want employment to be this way.
What do they think is going to happen when they stop working? Or is the plan - again a juvenile one, seeking a parental figure - "I'll just work for a company until I die"? Have fun with that...
Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, the salaries are about 30-50% what they are in the US. Maybe it's related.
Maybe it's related, maybe it's due to the fact that the cost of almost everything in the US is higher. There's many factors in this conversation
Certainly not compared to Europe/UK. I have friends that moved there and have spent many weeks over there myself. Property, living expenses, taxes, and many goods are generally noticeably higher over there.
Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws
#26EU labor laws protect the workers. I dont get why US Americans often think these laws dont benefit the workers.
Strong worker protections are a major reason that big tech and many other industries have a much smaller presence in Europe and pay far less to Europeans. You're worth less if you might be absent on parental leave for a year at a time. You're higher risk to hire if you can't be fired easily etc. Protections have a cost. My friends that moved to UK/Europe get half their former salary and have much higher living expens…
Wealth inequality for instance is something that permeates political discourse. Americans don't give a shit about it at all. Making society nicer for everyone and not leaving anyone behind.
Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
Strong worker protections are a major reason that big tech and many other industries have a much smaller presence in Europe and pay far less to Europeans. You're worth less if you might be absent on parental leave for a year at a time. You're higher risk to hire if you can't be fired easily etc. Protections have a cost. My friends that moved to UK/Europe get half their former salary and have much higher living expens…
It all depends on what you value. Dutch labour laws are not written for highly educated tech bros but designed to protect everyone. Wealth inequality for instance is something that permeates political discourse. Americans don't give a shit about it at all. Making society nicer for everyone and not leaving anyone behind.
Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws
#28EU labor laws protect the workers. I dont get why US Americans often think these laws dont benefit the workers.
Strong worker protections are a major reason that big tech and many other industries have a much smaller presence in Europe and pay far less to Europeans. You're worth less if you might be absent on parental leave for a year at a time. You're higher risk to hire if you can't be fired easily etc. Protections have a cost. My friends that moved to UK/Europe get half their former salary and have much higher living expens…
Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws
#29Will this potentially make these employers more hesitant in the future to hire in countries where they will have a harder time letting them go?
> Youth unemployment is notoriously high in France, in particular for the low-skilled. Within the EU, only the crisis countries of Southern Europe fare worse. This report delivered to the French Council of Economic Analysis analyzes the causes and consequences of this alarming trend. In addition, drawing on the available evidence on various measures that could improve the current situation, concrete policies proposals are derived that cover the areas of vocational education, second chance programs, job search assistance, income support, employment subsidies and dismissal protection.
Why Is Unemployment in France So High? - https://www.elibrary.imf.org/display/book/9781557754912/ch01...
> With regard to the demand-side causes of long-term unemployment, employers faced with continued uncertainty about future orders may refrain from recruitment for long periods of time, causing the persistence of both unemployment and long-term unemployment, particularly if wages are not flexible. Labor market rigidities, such as the relative generosity of long-term benefits, employment protection legislation, the minimum wage, and high employer costs are other potential contributory factors.
> ...
> The 1986 work dismissal legislation in France requires that those being dismissed are given one to two months’ written notice of dismissal and informed in writing of the reasons for their dismissal. At the same time this legislation removed the need to seek the permission of the Labor Ministry for collective dismissals. Other legislation in 1989 obliged companies to prove the cause of dismissal. The law in France also requires that workers be paid up to a maximum of one and a half months’ salary as severance pay. Though the legal restrictions on dismissal in France are less strict than those in the southern European countries, they are more strict than those outside Europe, particularly in the United States.
Re: Google and Amazon Struggle to Lay Off Workers in Europe Due to Labor Laws
#30Is there anywhere I can learn more about these regulations and what are the differences between different European countries? What Bloomberg writes here is not so concrete beyond requirements for consultations". Are you really not allowed to lay people off to save money?
To be succinct, I'm from Spain, here you can fire anyone for no reason whenever you feel like it. If you do so out of a whim, you have to pay about ~20 days per each year that employee worked in your organization. This is the worst case scenario. What everyone refers to "you can't fire people in Europe".
There are other circumstances in which letting someone go might get you in trouble (as in having to re-admit that individual). Such cases include letting someone go for ethnical reasons, pregnancy, illness, etc. You can get sued and after a due trial you might need to re-admit that employee and pay a fine. To put things in perspective, I have a close friend that got fired just when his company learned he had cancer (by a coworker). They went to trial (one year later) and the judge solved the case by an agreement where my friend got about ~3,000e (something negligible).
Obviously, there are many other cases in which you can fire an employee without paying them anything. If the employee is not doing her job (not being on time, bad service, etc) you need to go through some hoops (filling fault forms) to justify letting that person go without any kind of compensation - this is similar to the US when someone is not performing and you want to let them go. Another case is if the company is losing money (which is different from predicting future loses or worsening its performance).
The latter case is the one that companies like Google, Meta, etc are going through. They are not going bankrupt. They are actually having humungous benefits. The only thing that is preventing them from letting people go is that 1-month/year compensation I mentioned above. In some countries, these laws might differ a little bit, but I imagine they are cut from the same cloth.
At the end of the day, in most situations, this does not differ that much from companies in the US where you are not entitled to any compensation but companies still give you some money to avoid any future lawsuits.
For the regular Joe procrastinating in HN, these laws have close to no impact in their welfare because they are not part of a vulnerable strata of society. They won't be working in a McDonalds or a car factory in their 50's, and luckily cancer won't come knocking their door at their 30's or 40's before they had the opportunity to save as much money as they can with their IT jobs. However, for the people that are not that fortunate, being able to look for a job for 3 months after you got fired (so your past company could hire someone younger and more productive) is a blessing. Same as if you fall ill for a year and your non-IT job didn't let you save enough money.
Neoliberalism is great for those who are well established in life. For those that when tragedy (death, illness, depression, simply bad luck) knocks their doors are well prepared both economically and mentally. For the rest, it's a hole that they might not be able to escape for the rest of their lives, which will have an impact in younger generations.
On my side, I'm extremely grateful we have these laws protecting those who need it the most, even if (hopefully) I might never need them.
I'm ~30, from Spain, my parents' family were immigrants (from inside Spain), living in what today would be seen as extreme harsh conditions. At the time of my parents, university was only for rich people. However, I had the luck to go to the world top109 and Europe's top14 engineering university for almost no money (1,000e/year). Today I have an IT job, working from Spain for a company from abroad, making more money than I need, and being grateful my taxes are high and I don't need to worry too much that an enraged homeless/crackhead do me any serious harm.