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EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

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Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#41

Post by blibble »

eppp wrote: post #18
thrashh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well based on the fact that - we’ve cleaned up 25% of sites in a system that only started in the 80s - the infrastructure bill in 2021 bringing back the superfund cleanup tax on chemical companies that expired in 1995 — at double the rate - and Congress also authorizing an extra $3.5 billion 2 years ago just for cleanups I think it’s too early to be so cynical

This is a completely broken system though. These cleanup fees should be paid for during the waste generation. Just being allowed to pollute everything and then paying out the owners and declaring bankruptcy leaving it to the tax system to clean up is nonsensical.

in cases like that: if the owners are still around (meaning: not deceased) the courts should be able to pierce the corporate veil and go after the directors for unlimited amounts

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#42

Post by schiffern »

hammock wrote: post #30
thechao wrote: post #26

Has anyone seen a good analysis on what went wrong? I found a USAToday article with a partial fragment saying that one of the wheels had a failed bearing, and this was the proximal cause of the derailment. It seems to me that (as pointed out in the article) the mean-time-to-failure increases with the length of the train; perhaps nonlinearly? I think the failure rate of bearings is proportional to the length of the tr…

There are thousands of derailments every year. The bigger problem is not the derailment but the fact that they released and burned off the vinyl chloride in order to expeditiously clear the tracks and get them running again, at great health and environmental cost to the local community and even several states in the windshed to the northeast (PA, NY, VT)

>and even several states in the windshed to the northeast (PA, NY, VT)

My understanding is that contemporaneous weather radar[0] put the plume southeast at the time of the burn.

[0] https://www.wdtn.com/news/ohio/east-palestine-train-derailme...

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#43

Post by duskwuff »

eppp wrote: post #18
thrashh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well based on the fact that - we’ve cleaned up 25% of sites in a system that only started in the 80s - the infrastructure bill in 2021 bringing back the superfund cleanup tax on chemical companies that expired in 1995 — at double the rate - and Congress also authorizing an extra $3.5 billion 2 years ago just for cleanups I think it’s too early to be so cynical

This is a completely broken system though. These cleanup fees should be paid for during the waste generation. Just being allowed to pollute everything and then paying out the owners and declaring bankruptcy leaving it to the tax system to clean up is nonsensical.

> This is a completely broken system though.

When "the system" is working properly, hazardous waste is contained and disposed of appropriately, and sites don't become polluted. The Superfund program exists to remediate situations where that system failed.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#44

Post by fh973 »

pookha wrote: post #27

Apparently there are something like 1K derailments a year in the US? Had no idea...Seems pretty high. https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2023/02/17/tra...

Indeed... the EU has a similar network size and there it's less than 100: https://twitter.com/HerrNaumann/status/1626342809438502918

Edit: less than 100 (Entgleisungen).

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#45

Post by MSFT_Edging »

jmclnx wrote: post #5

Glad to see this, and if Norfolk Southern goes bankrupt, all assets go to the cleanup and high level execs are changed or are forced to pay the difference. Also, with this being in Ohio, I hope people in Ohio realize how valuable the EPA is and stop voting for people who want to cut every Gov Program except for Defense.

Fines need to start being paid in company stock, its the only thing companies are beholden to. Everything else is just a price to wreck havoc.

The more the company purposefully puts people in danger, the more nationally owned they are. Especially when it comes to infrastructure like this.

"Sorry, you've been nationalized due to your continued efforts in proving you cannot be trusted". Fines large enough to matter would arguably hurt infrastructure and safety. Start taking shares.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#46

Post by hammock »

schiffern wrote: post #42
hammock wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are thousands of derailments every year. The bigger problem is not the derailment but the fact that they released and burned off the vinyl chloride in order to expeditiously clear the tracks and get them running again, at great health and environmental cost to the local community and even several states in the windshed to the northeast (PA, NY, VT)

>and even several states in the windshed to the northeast (PA, NY, VT) My understanding is that contemporaneous weather radar[0] put the plume southeast at the time of the burn. [0] https://www.wdtn.com/news/ohio/east-palestine-train-derailme...

That is good info, thanks for sharing.

Here is the model that NOAA created - and which has not been officially released to the public yet: https://twitter.com/FalconryFinance/status/16258723275684208...

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#47

Post by irrational »

jmclnx wrote: post #5

Glad to see this, and if Norfolk Southern goes bankrupt, all assets go to the cleanup and high level execs are changed or are forced to pay the difference. Also, with this being in Ohio, I hope people in Ohio realize how valuable the EPA is and stop voting for people who want to cut every Gov Program except for Defense.

Why defense? If someone seriously attacked the USA, Ohio would be one of the last places they would go for. It would be the Democrat states like CA and NY that would be hit first. You would think they would be in favor of having less defense so those liberals in CA can be taken out.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#48

Post by pionar »

pookha wrote: post #27

Apparently there are something like 1K derailments a year in the US? Had no idea...Seems pretty high. https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2023/02/17/tra...

We're actually at historic lows for # of derailments in the US over the past 30 years

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#49

Post by dashundchen »

ctrlaltdylan wrote: post #28
thepasswordis wrote: post #17

I'd like to see the head of the EPA, the transportation secretary, the executive team at NS, and anybody in the Biden administration who was involved in blocking the rail workers from striking move into East Palestine and live there, with their children. Don't want to do that because it isn't safe? Then buy these people all new homes. We can start the bidding at $1M per household. I cannot overstate the fury that I f…

I'm from the Northeast Ohio area, and also from a small town like East Palestine. The lack of response from Governor DeWine and malice to not declare a state of emergency is infuriating. This rhymes with Flink Michigan's water crisis, and Obama "drinking" the water in a publicity stunt: https://www.factcheck.org/2019/03/posts-distort-facts-on-oba... Vote democrat and only see the elite placate the working class. Vote…

> The fact this isn't covered in NYT or headlines on cable TV is insane

Seriously, where is this idea coming from? Search the NYT, there's been coverage of the incident almost every day since it happened - not just the incident and its causes, but also on potential environmental fallout and meta-coverage of journalism and conspiracies around the whole thing. Many times it's been the top-line headline, at least when I am logged in.

I've seen continuous coverage on NPR, in fact the subject of this post is the current top headline on npr.org.

Every time I've been at a relative's who watches MSNBC I hear it brought up at least once during news hour.

My local paper a couple hundred miles away, despite thin coverage these days, has even had articles about what/any impact the fire has in our region.

The only event I've seen the has had anywhere close to the amount of coverage is the Turkey - Syria earthquake, which is a global level natural disaster that's killed 46,000 people and counting. I think that rightfully deserves coverage as well.

What national outlets are you following that you haven't seen coverage of this?

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#50

Post by riffic »

MSFT_Edging wrote: post #45
jmclnx wrote: post #5

Glad to see this, and if Norfolk Southern goes bankrupt, all assets go to the cleanup and high level execs are changed or are forced to pay the difference. Also, with this being in Ohio, I hope people in Ohio realize how valuable the EPA is and stop voting for people who want to cut every Gov Program except for Defense.

Fines need to start being paid in company stock, its the only thing companies are beholden to. Everything else is just a price to wreck havoc. The more the company purposefully puts people in danger, the more nationally owned they are. Especially when it comes to infrastructure like this. "Sorry, you've been nationalized due to your continued efforts in proving you cannot be trusted". Fines large enough to matter wou…

the federal government can step in and nationalize the railroad at any point as it has done in the past (woodrow wilson era iirc)
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