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Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

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Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#41

Post by hello_moto »

quanticle wrote: post #26
hello_moto wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not as bad as you'd think. These best practices are just the foundation, not necessary the long-term solutions. Once you have a set of standard, there's always room for improvement or changes. The biggest problem with N.A. workers is that they can be categorized into 3 types when it comes to "Do Things": - Do as they pleased (cause they think they know it all) - Follow the best practice - Follow the latest and g…

>You kind of need a "Yes-Man" if you're on early stage of startup inventing your own dream (I'm sure this is going to open a can of worm but hey... it's your startup). Nonsense. You are not smart enough to run your company. That bears repeating: You are not smart enough to run your company. In other words, you will face unexpected challenges and problems that you aren't smart enough to solve on your own. In a situati…

It's hard to argue because I've seen many companies/businesses that start that way back home or in Asia.

Only later on when they're stable enough to hire smarter people then they start to delegate.

YMMV. As I said it before, it's one of the reason why people want to go back regardless whether I'm wrong or you're right.

It's the worst place for you but not necessary for other people.

Different culture but I haven't seen China nor South Korea fail so far :).

UPDATE: Since I can't reply any more (for whatever reason). Sure, innovation might be lacking, but meh, most people come back because they want to create a company/business. This isn't a debate about USA vs the rest of the world in terms of innovation. It's about "why" people left US.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#42

Post by paulhauggis »

nirvana wrote: post #37
henrikschroder wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you principally doing business?

That sure looks like a straight forward question, but it actually isn't. Business is an abstraction. We do the work we need to do wherever we are, but the business lives elsewhere, while our primary market is global, such that one of the countries with our largest sales (prior to recent pivot) is a country we've never visited.

okay, where do you pay your taxes? because this is all that really matters in terms of business.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#43

Post by frankus »

8bitpal wrote: post #5

I'm really interested in what compels entrepreneurs to leave a country or area that was formerly a hub for startups. I posted before in the context of SOPA: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3265961 What would it take for you to leave the place you are based now and try your luck somewhere else?

I'm not much of an entrepreneur, but I'm planning to move just across the border to Vancouver so I can live with the Canadian I've been dating for eight and a half years (it's not totally impossible for us to live together down here but it's just so much more of a hassle that it's not worth it).

Unfortunately when I last checked a few months ago no one was really looking to hire iOS developers up there.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#44

Post by potatolicious »

OmarIsmail wrote: post #25
randomdata wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except maybe Canada Canada is generally regarded as a terrible place for startups, unfortunately. The laws are pretty restrictive towards "disruptive" technologies and the government always bends in favour of the existing players.

> Canada is generally regarded as a terrible place for startups, unfortunately. The laws are pretty restrictive towards "disruptive" technologies and the government always bends in favour of the existing players. What the heck are you talking about? Can you please provide some sources for this? Other than telecom and media I can't think of any space in the tech industry that the government is "restrictive" towards. I…

Canadian expat here. You missed one thing: a dramatically smaller talent pool.

The brain drain for coders from Canada to the USA is immense. It's not a trickle, it's a full-on broken dam. I'm making easily double here what I would in Canada, even if you account for tax and cost of living. Software engineers, in general, simply don't get paid well in Canada. The ease of securing a TN visa also means that there is effectively very little barrier to anyone who wants to bail to the south side of the border.

I can't speak for everyone - but amongst myself and my other Canadian expat colleagues, a very large portion of the Canadian coder population that have the chops to get hired have left. What does this say about the talent pool that remains?

That's not a great position to work from.

Disclaimer: I am not at all claiming there aren't masterful coders in Canada, but rather that a lot of the wheat has left the country, leaving an extra heaping serving of chaff.

The funny thing is, among my Canadian colleagues here in the US, it's almost universal to want to return to Canada. The health care is sane, society is more peaceful, and the quality of life is noticeably higher than just about any US city I've been to.

Those conversations inevitably, and always, turn into us sitting around nursing beers, and wondering where in the hell we'd work in Canada that'd satisfy us professionally.

Biggest software names in Canada? EA? SAP? RIM?!

This is somewhat OT from the entrepreneurial side of the question, but also relevant. The job market in Canada has a lot of code monkey jobs, and not a lot of meaty software jobs that hackers crave. Much of the reason why there's such a huge drain of programmers from Canada to the US is not just the pay difference, but also professional satisfaction. I can't move home because almost nothing in Canada will present the level of challenge, the level of impact, that I can have here.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#45

Post by hello_moto »

trevelyan wrote: post #34
hello_moto wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of exposures mostly. Also Canadians tend to be less ruthless (I'm not going to debate the right or wrong on this but seeing that the biggest and most successful companies are driven by ruthless people...) Canada also has a small (but growing) market. There aren't too many big cities and big spenders. Vancouver, while it's beautiful and nice and all that, the majority businesses tend to revolve around government…

"Also Canadians tend to be less ruthless (I'm not going to debate the right or wrong on this but seeing that the biggest and most successful companies are driven by ruthless people...)" I agree Americans are more entrepreneurial, but I don't think it's evident that ruthlessness is a desirable trait in business and think that Canada's sane public policy in taxation and health care makes it better to live and hire in C…

Oh there's this thing called SRED which can be double edged sword.

On one hand, you get back half of your expenses paying salary and all that stuff and on the other hand, it makes your balance sheet looks profitable even though in reality, a few companies are actually on the red.

When it comes to paying jobs and cost of living, my idiotic brain usually look at the situation this way (this is by no mean the right way to make a decision but I use it for my own regardless):

Let's take one O'reilly book and turn back to check the price. Canadian is always more expensive right? (Due to currency exchange or whatnot).

Let's take the same job (Software Developer) salary average given the same experience level: intermediate. One might receive about $80-100k in the US while in Canada, they might receive $65-75k. Plus the jobs aren't that many here.

Canada: higher nominal cost of living and lower nominal. income.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#46

Post by davidw »

nirvana wrote: post #23

In several of the comments, people have asked why entrepreneurs might want to leave the USA, given the common perception that the USA is a great place to do a business. I'm making this comment in response to those questions as an example of an entrepreneur whose left the USA. My reasons for doing this are obviously going to be different than those who would choose not to, so don't get mad. I'm not trying to persuade…

> Pick whatever examples work best for you

We have a black guy as president. That simply would not have happened even 20 years ago. At protests, even relatively minor nastiness by police is filmed and broadcast immediately. Look up what the police did in some places in the 60ies as a comparison. We have the internet to get information out about various things.

It's easy to see and complain about the bad things, and right to do so, or else they wouldn't improve. It's also worth considering though, that things have improved in many ways.

> Chile for instance, has a culture that is more instinctively capitalist.

I don't know much about Chile, but didn't they vote in a guy who was more or less a communist in the 70ies? Who was then murdered, along with many people, by a brutal dictator, who put in place many capitalist institutions? Which do turn out to work better than the alternative in many cases, so they've been kept? I don't know what the average 'man on the street's view of the whole thing is though. Is it possible the capitalism was kind of foisted on the country and has stuck because it more or less works, but that it's not all that ingrained into the culture? I have no idea, honestly, but do think the Startup Chile thing is pretty cool even if they didn't accept me.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#47

Post by rdouble »

davidw wrote: post #46
nirvana wrote: post #23

In several of the comments, people have asked why entrepreneurs might want to leave the USA, given the common perception that the USA is a great place to do a business. I'm making this comment in response to those questions as an example of an entrepreneur whose left the USA. My reasons for doing this are obviously going to be different than those who would choose not to, so don't get mad. I'm not trying to persuade…

> Pick whatever examples work best for you We have a black guy as president. That simply would not have happened even 20 years ago. At protests, even relatively minor nastiness by police is filmed and broadcast immediately. Look up what the police did in some places in the 60ies as a comparison. We have the internet to get information out about various things. It's easy to see and complain about the bad things, and r…

Maybe everyone's a capitalist there out of residual cultural fear of being targeted by a caravan of death for having an alternative viewpoint.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#48

Post by refurb »

trevelyan wrote: post #34
hello_moto wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of exposures mostly. Also Canadians tend to be less ruthless (I'm not going to debate the right or wrong on this but seeing that the biggest and most successful companies are driven by ruthless people...) Canada also has a small (but growing) market. There aren't too many big cities and big spenders. Vancouver, while it's beautiful and nice and all that, the majority businesses tend to revolve around government…

"Also Canadians tend to be less ruthless (I'm not going to debate the right or wrong on this but seeing that the biggest and most successful companies are driven by ruthless people...)" I agree Americans are more entrepreneurial, but I don't think it's evident that ruthlessness is a desirable trait in business and think that Canada's sane public policy in taxation and health care makes it better to live and hire in C…

"As far as academia goes, my experience is that when it comes to undergraduate education Canadian universities are better or equal to their American counterparts."

I completed my undergrad in Canada then moved to the US. There is no Canadian undergrad program that comes close to the top programs in the US. I did some grad work at an Ivy League school and the undergrad programs are incredible. Not so much in terms of having better content or professors (although that is generally true), but mainly in terms of providing personalized guidance to young students from day one. The stories I heard from the undergrads I met were astonishing. Interested in chemistry? We'll set you up with one-on-one meetings with Nobel prize winners and industry titans. If you're good, you'll basically get access to the top opportunities without really asking.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#49

Post by davidw »

rdouble wrote: post #47
davidw wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pick whatever examples work best for you We have a black guy as president. That simply would not have happened even 20 years ago. At protests, even relatively minor nastiness by police is filmed and broadcast immediately. Look up what the police did in some places in the 60ies as a comparison. We have the internet to get information out about various things. It's easy to see and complain about the bad things, and r…

Maybe everyone's a capitalist there out of residual cultural fear of being targeted by a caravan of death for having an alternative viewpoint.

They actually have seemed to pick fairly sensible, middle of the road type of people after having ditched Pinochet, rather than lurching to the other extreme.

It seems like a country that's doing pretty well, but I honestly have no idea what things are like 'on the ground'.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#50

Post by rdouble »

davidw wrote: post #49
rdouble wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe everyone's a capitalist there out of residual cultural fear of being targeted by a caravan of death for having an alternative viewpoint.

They actually have seemed to pick fairly sensible, middle of the road type of people after having ditched Pinochet, rather than lurching to the other extreme. It seems like a country that's doing pretty well, but I honestly have no idea what things are like 'on the ground'.

My comment was tongue in cheek. However, I did think the GP's comment about Chile being "instinctively capitalist" was a bit ridiculous considering the country's history.
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