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Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

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Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#41

Post by bzbarsky »

illumen wrote: post #38
bzbarsky wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, and as regards "special treatment"... what sort? The Mozilla Foundation has very little revenue of its own. All revenue coming via the Mozilla Corporation is handled like any other revenue from any other corporation for tax purposes and the like Either you're a bit confused about what it means to be a "non profit", or I'd really like to see a clear explanation of what sorts of special treatment you think Mozilla…

Here it explains what privileges non profits get: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_organization Mozilla Foundation owns Mozilla Corporation, and Mozilla Foundation is a non profit. Non profits get special privileges that companies do not get - and that is all I am talking about, I'm not concerned about it. Mozilla Foundation and Subsidiary declared $61,501,145 Royalties from search in the 2006 Auditors report.…

> Here it explains what privileges non profits get: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_organization

Yes, I'm well aware of that. The point is that the privileges nonprofits get are largely about not having to pay taxes on revenue, but the Mozilla Foundation has no revenue to start with, so there would be no tax to pay in any case.

The main "privilege" the Mozilla Foundation gets, as far as I can see, is that people who donate money to it can claim that as a tax deduction on their income tax return.

This is for the US; I have no idea whether Mozilla has any sort of nonprofit presence in other jurisdictions, nor what the laws are there regarding nonprofits.

Again, can you point to any specific privileges that you're concerned with that Mozilla is getting, instead of handwaving? I see a privilege that people giving money to Mozilla get, is all.

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#42

Post by bzbarsky »

illumen wrote: post #39
bzbarsky wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google is also told what urls people type in. You must be thinking of Chrome. In Firefox this is very definitely NOT the case. That's why the url bar and the search field are separate.

yup, thanks. I removed that bit from the post. If I type "blabla" into the url bar and press enter it still goes to google, even if you change the default search engine to say duck duck go/wikipedia etc. Also doesn't Firefox send google the url for 'safebrowsing', the anti phishing detection thing?

> If I type "blabla" into the url bar and press enter it > still goes to google

It goes to a search engine defined in user preferences, actually. You are correct that this search engine is not correlated with the one selected in the search field.

> 'safebrowsing', the anti phishing detection thing?

That's carefully designed to not have to send the url to the safebrowsing provider. The browser has a client-side database of blacklisted urls, and there is also a mode where a one-way hash of the url is sent to the safebrowsing provider. In no case is the actual url sent.

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#43

Post by illumen »

bzbarsky wrote: post #41
illumen wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here it explains what privileges non profits get: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_organization Mozilla Foundation owns Mozilla Corporation, and Mozilla Foundation is a non profit. Non profits get special privileges that companies do not get - and that is all I am talking about, I'm not concerned about it. Mozilla Foundation and Subsidiary declared $61,501,145 Royalties from search in the 2006 Auditors report.…

> Here it explains what privileges non profits get: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_organization Yes, I'm well aware of that. The point is that the privileges nonprofits get are largely about not having to pay taxes on revenue, but the Mozilla Foundation has no revenue to start with, so there would be no tax to pay in any case. The main "privilege" the Mozilla Foundation gets, as far as I can see, is that pe…

I'm not concerned with Mozilla being non profit.

Here are some advantages of non profits: http://grantspace.org/Tools/Knowledge-Base/Nonprofit-Managem...

In exchange for being a non profit, the government gives non profits these advantages, and that relates to the public supporting the non-profit Mozilla Foundation.

Yeah, there are other mozilla foundations in other countries. There's some listed on the mozilla foundation wikipedia page.

I feel a little trolled, and have other things to do, and I also think this conversation is going nowhere - so am not responding any further.

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#44

Post by bkor »

zdw wrote: post #3

If you find a problem with open source code and you can't fix it and provide a good patch, at least identify where in the code is at fault. If you can't find the fault, provide a fully formed test case that shows the problem. If you can't create a test case, be polite and extremely specific when reporting the bug. If you can't be polite... well the bug is probably less of a problem than your attitude.

Within the project I help out in, I spend a lot of time replying to people, trying to change their attitude. This usually helps. In the extreme cases it doesn't, I have a big hammer to wield (sysadmin).

If you're consistently (honestly) well-intended and nice, you'll see that it changes peoples attitude. Further, more people will stick around because they like the friendly atmosphere.

However, it has to be managed constantly. I want everyone to be nice, no matter if they're a developer who has worked on the project for 5+ years, or just a random person who saw a crash. Though, long time developer gets a bit more leeway than a new person.

If someone writes a really good rant or troll, I only want to see nice replies. Fortunately, this is usually what happens. Doesn't also make sense to get harsh or angry; just becomes a long thread because emotions get heated and people who are angry always seems to have a lot of time to vent.

Trying to make everyone be nice takes a lot of effort. Usually people do mean well, it is just that they either word it wrongly, culture (Germans :P), or that they're used to harsh communities elsewhere. It takes quite some effort to always respond in the best way, and not behave the same way back.

I'm sort of like a BOFH. Having sysadmin abilities means that I could be a behaving way too radically and there is nobody to easily say otherwise (could moderate them, remove their privs, etc).

I do above for the good of the project. Cannot code in the way the developers do and try to help out in this way.

One big problem is cultural differences. Some people expect really friendly and long language and see anything else as harsh; eventhough it is not intended that way (Northern Europe:P). E.g. a "No" as an answer to a long paragraph.

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#45

Post by ChuckMcM »

tedunangst wrote: post #37
JangoSteve wrote: post #21

I have found that most people don't even realize they're being dicks when submitting bug reports or feature suggestions for OSS. I recent wrote an article about this phenomenon and what to do about it. [1] For example, it can be demeaning to OSS developers who have spent much of their time (often unpaid) to build this software for you to use, when you open your bug report with the attitude that it must be broken simp…

the attitude that it must be broken simply because it doesn't do what you want it to do For better or worse, I get snippy when something doesn't work that I was told would work. Like when the included examples don't work or the documentation is wrong. Then I'm not angry because I didn't get the free pony I wanted, I'm angry because you lied to me.

I too get snippy when basic functionality doesn't work and the all of the latest commits in the stream do things like add colors or use VT100 line drawing characters to put boxes around something on a serial terminal.

That being said I understand how difficult it can be to contribute positively to some OSS projects. Tired and perhaps jaded core team members responding "Hey if you don't like it just create your own ." don't help.

The Selenium guys are a great example of an OSS project that is both open to outside input (even from relative noobs) and focussed on the right priorities (correctness over speed for example).

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#46

Post by JangoSteve »

tedunangst wrote: post #37
JangoSteve wrote: post #21

I have found that most people don't even realize they're being dicks when submitting bug reports or feature suggestions for OSS. I recent wrote an article about this phenomenon and what to do about it. [1] For example, it can be demeaning to OSS developers who have spent much of their time (often unpaid) to build this software for you to use, when you open your bug report with the attitude that it must be broken simp…

the attitude that it must be broken simply because it doesn't do what you want it to do For better or worse, I get snippy when something doesn't work that I was told would work. Like when the included examples don't work or the documentation is wrong. Then I'm not angry because I didn't get the free pony I wanted, I'm angry because you lied to me.

I understand it can be frustrating, but saying that the OSS developer "lied" to you is exactly the wrong kind of attitude I'm talking about.

Underlying libraries break, people have weirdly configured environments, browsers ship with new unexpected updates. There are a million legitimate reasons that things don't work at any given moment (yes, even the examples in documentation). Furthermore, the documentation often takes as much time and effort as the code itself, so it's entirely possible that the developer just hasn't had a chance to update the docs yet.

At the time you encounter your problem, you have no way of knowing why it's not behaving as you'd expect, or what led to such a circumstance. Having an attitude when submitting a ticket (as if the developer lied to you) is entirely counter-productive to finding a solution, even if you're right.

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#47

Post by bzbarsky »

illumen wrote: post #43
bzbarsky wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here it explains what privileges non profits get: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_organization Yes, I'm well aware of that. The point is that the privileges nonprofits get are largely about not having to pay taxes on revenue, but the Mozilla Foundation has no revenue to start with, so there would be no tax to pay in any case. The main "privilege" the Mozilla Foundation gets, as far as I can see, is that pe…

I'm not concerned with Mozilla being non profit. Here are some advantages of non profits: http://grantspace.org/Tools/Knowledge-Base/Nonprofit-Managem... In exchange for being a non profit, the government gives non profits these advantages, and that relates to the public supporting the non-profit Mozilla Foundation. Yeah, there are other mozilla foundations in other countries. There's some listed on the mozilla found…

So the advantages you describe for non-profits are exactly the same as for any limited-liability corporation, except for the tax-free revenue bit. And the revenue Mozilla gets is in fact taxed, since it's revenue of a for-profit corporation.

_You_'re feeling trolled? Pardon me, but as far as I can tell you're doing the trolling....

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#48

Post by JoeAltmaier »

tikhonj wrote: post #32
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #4

...or try not to get into the situation where your financial/employment status is in the hands of volunteers. (Don't use OS for important things that require diligent support)

The product is open source--your "financial/employment" status is never out of your control. The worst case is that you have to fix a bug yourself or pay somebody else to do it. In fact, if you end up hiring somebody else to do it, you have a lot more control over how and when it gets done. Also, there is a good chance somebody else wants the same issue resolved, and would contribute the solution back to the project,…

Spoken like a hacker. But some folks don't actually have the skills to fix a codec or debug a protocol. Almost everybody in fact.

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#49

Post by robflynn »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #25
robflynn wrote: post #7

I spent a good many years managing and developing a popular open source project. While most of our users were/are good individuals, there were certainly some nasty ones in the bunch. I remember being cursed at many a time simply for politely refusing to implement whatever random feature a user requested. If a bug were to come up in the software, there were times where threats and/or demands were made that I fix the b…

Off topic: I had a intermittent crashing bug in libpurple in the XMPP file transfer code. I filed a bug and was more than willing to help patch it myself, but gosh, the development environment to debug Pidgin on Windows or Mac is really something! I just couldn't get it set up to debug properly and the bug is still open 2 or 3 years later :(

I remember when we first started doing windows builds. I had a guy called Herman (I think? I knew him by that name anyway) handle the builds. I didn't always have easy access to a windows machine and it was a pain getting mingw/cygwin going with all the appropriate libraries installed in the correct places.

Though I am no longer really associated with the project, I am curious what the bug is/was. If you like, fire off an email to me off-site and send a link to the report or fill me in. You can find my e-mail in my profile.

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#50

Post by robflynn »

Ein2015 wrote: post #18
robflynn wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mentioned it initially but went back and removed it. I couldn't decide if the stating the project specifically was relevant or not. I often over analyze what I'm posting here for some reason. It was Pidgin, but back when it was called gaim. The pidgin transition occurred while I was leaving. I stuck around long enough to participate in deciding on the new name / logo / branding and then handed everything over to Se…

Oh wow. I've used your work almost every day for many years now. Thank you.

You are very much welcome. People like you are the reason that I stuck with it for as long as I did.
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