Live data from Hacker News

Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

autoweek.com

41–50 of 185 posts

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#41

They say not securing the cars properly can cause impacts that cause fire. But these cars are impact tested for passenger safety. The only vulnerability for the battery pack will be a bottom impact which should not occur on Roll on-Roll Off Carrier. Ships do need to adapt their firefighting process for Lithium-Ion batteries. But I'm not convinced about impacts causing fire.

Initial manufacturing defects are likely a decent cause. And you only need one in ten or hundred thousand to still have issues if such can affect other vehicles tightly packed around.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#42
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? Of course the avoidance of a human tragedy is great but the cost of this incident (to the shipping company, automotive manufacturers, insurers, environment) was enormous. It makes perfect sense to try to understand it better.

My point is that the ships telemetry was not an issue. Blaming electric vehicles with no basis, or lack of telemetry with clear evidence to the contrary is…something.

The issue is that they don't know what caused the ship to sink, because the data recorder is at the bottom of the ocean. If they'd streamed the data continuously, we'd have useful information to prevent future sinkings.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#43

This article is pure speculation by an insurance company that isn’t involved, and admit they have no idea what happened. FUD.

> speculation by an insurance company

Speculation about risk is literally what insurance companies do; how they determine the terms of insurance.

I learned a lot from this. One, shipping is pretty fly-by-night. Operators are winging it and trusting to luck in a lot of cases; failing to secure cargo for expediency for example. That's more corroboration than new knowledge. Two, fires are common on cargo ships: 14 times a year some cargo ship starts burning for some reason, car carriers being among the more frequent. Small fires that are quickly contained aren't included in that figure because they don't get reported. Three, car carrying ships aren't prepared to deal with cascading lithium battery fires. They can handle ICE fires but haven't yet adapted to the electric vehicles they're actually starting to carry in quantity. Four, the people that have to analyze the risks involved because they're liable for the costs are more candid about electric car fires; they say straight up that "lithium-ion batteries—they can ignite a lot more vigorously as compared to any other cars" and "a high impact on these cars and a lithium-ion battery can ignite them." A refreshing change from the obligatory handwaving and cognitive dissonance one gets at all other times.

In electronics there is the concept of a bathtub curve. The frequency of component failure is high when the components are new. The frequency decreases afterwards and later increases again with old age.

Applied to cargo ships full of electric cars with millions of brand new battery cells, obviously the risk that some battery will ignite and sink the ship has to be considered. And it will be considered -- if only by insurance companies -- whether electric car proponents like it or not.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#44

This article is not about if EVs are safe. It's about the fact that putting out a fire when batteries are involved is hard. Every week there is a fire on a cargo ship. Most are not caused by the cargo. But when the cargo catches fire you want to be able to put it out before the whole ships turns into scrap.

EVs are safe if you remove batteries. If batteries can not be easily removed and serviced, it is unsafe design. We need basic regulations around safety here.

I'm all for serviceable batteries, but I don't see how it solves the shipping safety issue.

So you ship the EVs without batteries, and then... you ship the batteries?

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EVs catch fire drastically less than combustion fueled vehicles because they don't involve explosive materials. Also we ship giant ships full of oil and gas all over the world every single day which is vastly more combustible than batteries.

Oil and gas require oxygen to burn.

And heat. And you know what is around ships? Near infinite amount of easily handled high heat capacity coolant. Okay, usually the stuff is pretty contaminated, but some cleaning and resurfacing is better than everything staying burning.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#48
post #34

This article is not about if EVs are safe. It's about the fact that putting out a fire when batteries are involved is hard. Every week there is a fire on a cargo ship. Most are not caused by the cargo. But when the cargo catches fire you want to be able to put it out before the whole ships turns into scrap.

Why is it hard to put out a fire when EV batteries are involved? If the fire doesn't start in the EV battery why would the battery catch fire? It might sound like an odd question, but we have experience with this in Norway, and the results are counterintuitive. Cars in a large airport parking garage caught fire, and it had many EVs in it. Not a single battery pack caught fire. Only the interior of the EVs did. If the…

One of the problems is that lithium ion batteries can't be discharged fully without destroying them. Effectively, the batteries are a very large energy source that can never be fully turned off. Another problem is that (if I understand correctly) lithium ion battery fires tend to produce their own oxygen. Another problem is that a manufacturing defect in one cell could cause the whole pack to catch on fire. According to the article, a fourth problem is that roll-on/roll-off car carriers just store a bunch of cars in one big space, and there aren't barriers to prevent one car from starting all its neighbors on fire.

Putting out an EV battery fire basically entails dumping enormous amounts of water on it to keep the temperature under control until it's cool enough that it doesn't auto-ignite as soon as you stop. That can take hours.

I tend to agree that the risk of EV fires is overblown. ICE cars catch on fire all the time and we don't usually hear about it because it's not all that rare or unusual. It just doesn't make the news. EV fires are a novelty so we hear about them. (Not that any amount of vehicle fires is okay.)

I do think though that if you're moving thousands of cars together on a ship, then that's maybe creating a different kind of risk profile.

I look forward to wider adoption of LFP batteries. They aren't immune to fire; I think the electrolyte is still flammable. They just aren't nearly as energetic when they burn, and they're harder to ignite in the first place.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#49
post #34

This article is not about if EVs are safe. It's about the fact that putting out a fire when batteries are involved is hard. Every week there is a fire on a cargo ship. Most are not caused by the cargo. But when the cargo catches fire you want to be able to put it out before the whole ships turns into scrap.

Why is it hard to put out a fire when EV batteries are involved? If the fire doesn't start in the EV battery why would the battery catch fire? It might sound like an odd question, but we have experience with this in Norway, and the results are counterintuitive. Cars in a large airport parking garage caught fire, and it had many EVs in it. Not a single battery pack caught fire. Only the interior of the EVs did. If the…

Among many other differences, I imagine cars are packed more densely in a cargo ship than in an airport parking.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#50
post #26

Can the risks of battery fires be deeply reduced if the batteries have a very low charge when transported?

Probably to some extent, but there are limits. If the charge is too low it damages the battery, and self-discharge is a thing. So, if you're moving cars with a low charge you're under a self-imposed time limit to get them where they need to go and recharged before their cell voltages drop below their normal operating range.
Post reply on HN