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Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

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Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#31

Post by NickNameNick »

jrockway wrote: post #27

Do lithium batteries contain an oxidizer? Is an inert atmosphere enough?

I think that's inherent in the definition of a chemical battery.

Sustaining an electrical charge difference across the poles of the cell by undergoing a chemical reaction.

For the common NMC batteries used in cars, I think the other metals start as oxides, which get reduced to oxidise the lithium.

In any case, I doubt that an inert atmosphere would help much.

A better approach might be to have high-capacity water pipes pre-plumbed to allow flood cooling of the affected cars. Possibly from underneath.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#32

Post by mlindner »

blenderdt wrote: post #22

This article is not about if EVs are safe. It's about the fact that putting out a fire when batteries are involved is hard. Every week there is a fire on a cargo ship. Most are not caused by the cargo. But when the cargo catches fire you want to be able to put it out before the whole ships turns into scrap.

EVs catch fire drastically less than combustion fueled vehicles because they don't involve explosive materials. Also we ship giant ships full of oil and gas all over the world every single day which is vastly more combustible than batteries.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#33

Post by mlindner »

minedwiz wrote: post #21
amaajemyfren wrote: post #19

Fuel literally burns and it is carried by ship - I believe there is a way to safely ferry them in ships.

To be fair, many (all?) of these ships are burning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_fuel_oil , which is not at all like petrol in that it requires preheating and atomisation to burn.

Granted, but after it's pre-heated it burns quite well.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#34

Post by audunw »

blenderdt wrote: post #22

This article is not about if EVs are safe. It's about the fact that putting out a fire when batteries are involved is hard. Every week there is a fire on a cargo ship. Most are not caused by the cargo. But when the cargo catches fire you want to be able to put it out before the whole ships turns into scrap.

Why is it hard to put out a fire when EV batteries are involved? If the fire doesn't start in the EV battery why would the battery catch fire?

It might sound like an odd question, but we have experience with this in Norway, and the results are counterintuitive. Cars in a large airport parking garage caught fire, and it had many EVs in it. Not a single battery pack caught fire. Only the interior of the EVs did. If they were all EVs the fire would likely be less severe, or not have started at all (an ICE car started it)

Battery packs are very well insulated against fires.

Assuming the fire doesn't go completely out of control, I don't see a reason to worry much about battery packs catching fire.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#35

Post by rob74 »

bornfreddy wrote: post #24
jhugo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The recorder contains alarms and other data as well as the conversations on the bridge. As I understand it, they're like an aviation CVR and FDR but combined. Just like with aircraft accidents, the conversations can provide as much (or sometimes more) value as the data. It gives you insight into decision making, details that may not be recorded in the data ("I was just in area XYZ and I saw sparks coming out of one o…

Curious - why is this recorder not a floating device (which broadcasts its position) so that it could be retrieved easily? It's not like it needs to record the ship's descent to the bottom. Or is the primary function of this device unrelated to sinking?

I'm not an expert here, but yes, there are a lot of incidents and accidents that need to be investigated that don't involve the ship sinking (remember the Ever Given?). Plus, having a device installed in some kind of floating pod which detaches automatically when the ship sinks requires a lot of extra equipment, it has to be on the outside, so exposed to salt water and corrosion, etc.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#36

Post by IshKebab »

mlindner wrote: post #32
blenderdt wrote: post #22

This article is not about if EVs are safe. It's about the fact that putting out a fire when batteries are involved is hard. Every week there is a fire on a cargo ship. Most are not caused by the cargo. But when the cargo catches fire you want to be able to put it out before the whole ships turns into scrap.

EVs catch fire drastically less than combustion fueled vehicles because they don't involve explosive materials. Also we ship giant ships full of oil and gas all over the world every single day which is vastly more combustible than batteries.

Oil and gas require oxygen to burn.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#37

Post by blenderdt »

audunw wrote: post #34
blenderdt wrote: post #22

This article is not about if EVs are safe. It's about the fact that putting out a fire when batteries are involved is hard. Every week there is a fire on a cargo ship. Most are not caused by the cargo. But when the cargo catches fire you want to be able to put it out before the whole ships turns into scrap.

Why is it hard to put out a fire when EV batteries are involved? If the fire doesn't start in the EV battery why would the battery catch fire? It might sound like an odd question, but we have experience with this in Norway, and the results are counterintuitive. Cars in a large airport parking garage caught fire, and it had many EVs in it. Not a single battery pack caught fire. Only the interior of the EVs did. If the…

If the battery catches fire they are very hard to out out.

But you are right that it's maybe harder to set the battery on fire in the first place.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#38

Post by throw93232 »

blenderdt wrote: post #22

This article is not about if EVs are safe. It's about the fact that putting out a fire when batteries are involved is hard. Every week there is a fire on a cargo ship. Most are not caused by the cargo. But when the cargo catches fire you want to be able to put it out before the whole ships turns into scrap.

EVs are safe if you remove batteries. If batteries can not be easily removed and serviced, it is unsafe design. We need basic regulations around safety here.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#39

Post by mytailorisrich »

This boils down to safety of battery EVs.

Indeed, soon they will be everywhere. Think not only of cargo ships but of traffic, rows of parked cars, whole carparks, etc.

In this case, the change is that was probably considered an inert cargo (cars) will now have be considered a potentially hazardous cargo perhaps requiring extra safety measures.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#40

Post by Ekaros »

mlindner wrote: post #32
blenderdt wrote: post #22

This article is not about if EVs are safe. It's about the fact that putting out a fire when batteries are involved is hard. Every week there is a fire on a cargo ship. Most are not caused by the cargo. But when the cargo catches fire you want to be able to put it out before the whole ships turns into scrap.

EVs catch fire drastically less than combustion fueled vehicles because they don't involve explosive materials. Also we ship giant ships full of oil and gas all over the world every single day which is vastly more combustible than batteries.

Maybe we should demand same safety standards from EVs. Fill those parts that could cause fire with inert gas if that helps. Yearly or as often checks that these systems operate correctly.
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