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Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

theguardian.com

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Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#41

Post by sofixa »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #33
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh no, god forbid we try to drag ourselves into the 21st century, and get somewhere close to what every other modern democracy has offered for decades.

No other country (democracy or not) has such a huge influx of legal and illegal immigrants and a laughably porous border. The US admits more people than the populations of some these democracies that people compare the US with. You can have a huge welfare state or open borders but not both. Unless the US invents a perpetual motion machine. Edit: downvotes and running away, the mark of a rational mind

Are you sure?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_mig...

I see Austria, Belgium, UK, Germany, Denmark, Italy accepting more immigrants per capita than the US.

In many of those countries, the "huge welfare states" have prerequisites ( for instance you can't just come in as an economic migrant and ask for unemployment benefits).

Furthermore, i thought the US was the richest country - it certainly has by far the most expensive military. But the flying spaghetti monster forbid money goes to other people.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#42

Post by lelandfe »

aerosmile wrote: post #35
throwawaysea wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This bill isn’t a focused climate or infrastructure bill. That’s the marketing dressing for a widely scoped bill where only 23% of spending is for infrastructure. In actuality it includes many radically left-leaning policies, which moderates on neither side of the aisle can support. A prominent example is that it included changes to immigration that would grant citizenship for 8 million illegal immigrants, which luck…

I have never heard this particular angle on this bill, and would hope that it's wrong. Can someone confirm/deny with some references?

To be fair, the only example of the “many radically left-leaning policies” that they provided was one that had already been removed.

I’m not quite sure what we’re confirming or denying here.

My understanding of how bill making works, anyway, is that there are usually riders or provisions like this that are known to be, shall we say, sacrificial. They make useful bargaining chips when seeking concessions.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#43

Post by zimpenfish »

aerosmile wrote: post #35
throwawaysea wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This bill isn’t a focused climate or infrastructure bill. That’s the marketing dressing for a widely scoped bill where only 23% of spending is for infrastructure. In actuality it includes many radically left-leaning policies, which moderates on neither side of the aisle can support. A prominent example is that it included changes to immigration that would grant citizenship for 8 million illegal immigrants, which luck…

I have never heard this particular angle on this bill, and would hope that it's wrong. Can someone confirm/deny with some references?

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/571724-democrats-make-ca...

It doesn't "grant citizenship", just provides a pathway for "Dreamers, temporary protected status holders, agricultural and other essential workers" to "getting permanent legal status or a green card". Which may then lead to citizenship if they meet the requirements.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#44

Post by stormbrew »

throwawaysea wrote: post #23
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #6

The Build Back Better bill (or reconciliation bill) is the only real climate legislation that will plausibly be signed into law in the United States in the 2020s. It offers a meaningful path forward for the US to curb its carbon emissions. Opposing it means you oppose doing anything about mitigating the climate crisis within the United States from a federal legislative perspective within a timeframe where we can reas…

This bill isn’t a focused climate or infrastructure bill. That’s the marketing dressing for a widely scoped bill where only 23% of spending is for infrastructure. In actuality it includes many radically left-leaning policies, which moderates on neither side of the aisle can support. A prominent example is that it included changes to immigration that would grant citizenship for 8 million illegal immigrants, which luck…

> intends to reshape the electorate and dilute the voting interests of legal citizens

Even if this characterization of the bill were accurate, those people would then be legal citizens. Are they then diluting their own voting interests? At any rate people being born also dilutes voting interests, should we end that too, or are only people born to it inherently worthy of citizenship?

Anyways, what, precisely, makes these people's interests less valid than those citizens? Most of them are paying taxes and working and raising families. They're literally asking to be subject to the same rights and responsibilities as citizens are. Wow how horrible.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#45

Post by b112 »

zimpenfish wrote: post #43
aerosmile wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never heard this particular angle on this bill, and would hope that it's wrong. Can someone confirm/deny with some references?

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/571724-democrats-make-ca... It doesn't "grant citizenship", just provides a pathway for "Dreamers, temporary protected status holders, agricultural and other essential workers" to "getting permanent legal status or a green card". Which may then lead to citizenship if they meet the requirements.

Ah. So it does have more than climate change issues in it.

As a Canuck, I see this as a huge US weakness. These megabills, riders and such.

The parent's point is valid. If people cared, really, really cared, it would be a single purpose bill.

It would be more effective too, in that, people could legitimately say... this is only about climate change. Nothing else. What part of this do you object to?

Right now, it clearly is not, and lo and behold, people can easily reject it, and even have very valid reasons for doing so.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#46

Post by jay_kyburz »

asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways.

I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good.

Nearly 700,000 Americans have died as a direct result of Covid, can you imagine how many people will have to die before people give up air travel or eating beef.

Covid has made me realize that no solution that asks people to wind back energy use will work, we need to push forward and develop carbon sequestration and other terrafoming technologies.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#47

Post by akomtu »

If software was developed the way politicians pass laws, Linux would get one master commit every few years with thousands of unrelated things in it, from typo fixes to sketchy telemetry, with a 1500 pages long description, and the commit would be branded as "build security better". The review would be a months long show where maintainers of all factions with their own agendas would try to negotiate behind the closed doors. Linus would be advocating for splitting the "pile of garbage" into individual commits, but the agitated mob (who thinks Linux is a game on Xbox) would be trying to bully him on Twitter for having a different opinion.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#48

Post by canarypilot »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #33
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh no, god forbid we try to drag ourselves into the 21st century, and get somewhere close to what every other modern democracy has offered for decades.

No other country (democracy or not) has such a huge influx of legal and illegal immigrants and a laughably porous border. The US admits more people than the populations of some these democracies that people compare the US with. You can have a huge welfare state or open borders but not both. Unless the US invents a perpetual motion machine. Edit: downvotes and running away, the mark of a rational mind

The downvotes are likely because you’ve made an outlandish claim that is unlikely to hold up to investigation - that America admits more immigrants than the population of some democracies that criticise it.

Total estimated population of unauthorised migrants in the US is around 11.4 million and declining (around 3% of population). 310,000 unauthorised migrants arrive in a year https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/immigra...

It looks like somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 people each year step to the next stage of their path to naturalisation in the US, this is probably the most reasonable way to count migrants. https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/special-reports/l...

That would give a total of around 500,000 migrants a year, the population of the smallest G8 country (Canada) is around 38 million.

The only way to get close to Canada’s population is to take the all-time estimated immigrant population (around 45 million, or 13.7% of population).

The closest you can get with the present-tense “admits” rather than “over 60 years has admitted” is to take all I-94 entries, which are explicitly non-immigrant entries, include tourists and office-visit visas, and would not be part of any welfare state.

There is no need to invent a perpetual motion machine to support people who are (broadly) supporting themselves (if through a legal migration route) or whose total size accounting for deaths and those who leave by choice is stable (if through an unauthorised route).

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#49

Post by Mirioron »

aerosmile wrote: post #35
throwawaysea wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This bill isn’t a focused climate or infrastructure bill. That’s the marketing dressing for a widely scoped bill where only 23% of spending is for infrastructure. In actuality it includes many radically left-leaning policies, which moderates on neither side of the aisle can support. A prominent example is that it included changes to immigration that would grant citizenship for 8 million illegal immigrants, which luck…

I have never heard this particular angle on this bill, and would hope that it's wrong. Can someone confirm/deny with some references?

This is the funny part, isn't it? The article talks about opposition to a bill but doesn't clearly name the bill or even explain its actual contents. The closest it gets is a link to another article that talks about two bills - a social policy bill and an infrastructure bill. One would think that an article in 2021 of a bill or a proposed bill could have a direct reference (preferably a link) to the document in question.

From the article that's linked to in the article:

>The social policy bill could be transformative for millions of American families. Though the details are fluid and the overall package almost certain to shrink, the proposed legislation would extend the child tax credit, establish universal pre-K education, create a federally paid family and medical leave system, in addition to an array of programs to combat the climate crisis and transition the country toward renewable energy. The plan would be paid for by trillions of dollars in tax increases on the wealthiest Americans and corporations.

Maybe Apple and Disney are against the apparently myriad other things in the bill rather than the programs to fight climate change?

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#50

Post by maccolgan »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #17
nverno wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Opposing it means you oppose ... If life were so simple. Of course, the reality is this bill covers everything from child tax credits, paid leaves, to god knows what else.

Oh no, god forbid we try to drag ourselves into the 21st century, and get somewhere close to what every other modern democracy has offered for decades.

>every other modern democracy

You realize how retarded this statement is, right?

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