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Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil fuels?

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Re: Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil fuels?

#41

Post by no_butterscotch »

dotancohen wrote: post #23

There is another reason for Norway to dig up the fossil fuels that gets little discussion: Russia. The Norwegian army's most pertinent threat is Russian invasion for the fossil-fuel reserves. It is interesting that some precious resources, such as fossil fuels, are also a great liability. In retrospect, I can think of quite a few nations that would have seen far less foreign interference and invasion had they had les…

There a Netflix show a while back about Russia invading Norway to control the oil reserves after Norway decided to go completely green, and stop exporting oil to EU partners.

Re: Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil fuels?

#42

Post by dundarious »

mirekrusin wrote: post #36
nowayman1 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No - Norway hasnt been treated like Nigeria, Venezuela, Azerbaijan and Libya because Norway is a white western country. Thus, neither the US/UK/France nor others will topple democratic regimes in Norway to get at the resources. Nigeria, Venezuela, Azerbaijan and Libya on the other hand are "expendable" nations where western powers clear the slate and build as they like. Usually in the name of Democracy, but really in…

What about Brazil?

The Jakarta Method came to Brazil to install a military dictatorship, then after that ended, didn’t they have good growth under Lula and more questionably under Dilma?

Re: Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil fuels?

#43

Post by slibhb »

nowayman1 wrote: post #30
credit_guy wrote: post #24

Norway is wealthy because of its strong institutions. Nigeria and Venezuela have more oil, Azerbaijan and Libya too, but for them it's a curse not a blessing. Norway has the rule of law, low corruption, people have confidence in their government, and the government looks out for the people. With or without oil, these things are tremendous assets. If oil were to become worthless tomorrow, Norway would continue to do q…

No - Norway hasnt been treated like Nigeria, Venezuela, Azerbaijan and Libya because Norway is a white western country. Thus, neither the US/UK/France nor others will topple democratic regimes in Norway to get at the resources. Nigeria, Venezuela, Azerbaijan and Libya on the other hand are "expendable" nations where western powers clear the slate and build as they like. Usually in the name of Democracy, but really in…

> Nigeria, Venezuela, Azerbaijan and Libya are corrupt because the US/UK/others install corrupt regimes and topple democratic ones.

There's no clear explanation for why some countries are rich and prosperous and free while others are not. Anyone claiming to have such a theory is bloviating.

Futher, you assume that the default is democracy and prosperity and we must explain why some countries lack that. But that's not the default! The default is corruption, privation, and instability. Those were certainly the conditions preceeding colonialism. The real question is how to escape that, and we have no particularly good theories there either.

Finally, the idea that certain countries have no agency is insulting and unhelpful.

Re: Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil fuels?

#44

Post by dcgudeman »

nowayman1 wrote: post #30
credit_guy wrote: post #24

Norway is wealthy because of its strong institutions. Nigeria and Venezuela have more oil, Azerbaijan and Libya too, but for them it's a curse not a blessing. Norway has the rule of law, low corruption, people have confidence in their government, and the government looks out for the people. With or without oil, these things are tremendous assets. If oil were to become worthless tomorrow, Norway would continue to do q…

No - Norway hasnt been treated like Nigeria, Venezuela, Azerbaijan and Libya because Norway is a white western country. Thus, neither the US/UK/France nor others will topple democratic regimes in Norway to get at the resources. Nigeria, Venezuela, Azerbaijan and Libya on the other hand are "expendable" nations where western powers clear the slate and build as they like. Usually in the name of Democracy, but really in…

The U.S. did not "install" Saddam Hussein lol.

Re: Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil fuels?

#45

Post by refurb »

Norwegianguy wrote: post #11
Scoundreller wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which just lets them export more of the dino stuff they extract. Good move if you can do it. Can they give up exporting it too though? I doubt that will happen.

If we don't export petroleum products, someone else will. Much of the money we earn from petroleum is spent on making "the green shift" happen. Can other exporters say the same?

If I don’t sell this addict heroin, someone else will. So why not me!

Re: Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil fuels?

#46

Post by lucb1e »

credit_guy wrote: post #24

Norway is wealthy because of its strong institutions. Nigeria and Venezuela have more oil, Azerbaijan and Libya too, but for them it's a curse not a blessing. Norway has the rule of law, low corruption, people have confidence in their government, and the government looks out for the people. With or without oil, these things are tremendous assets. If oil were to become worthless tomorrow, Norway would continue to do q…

> Norway has the rule of law, low corruption, people have confidence in their government, and the government looks out for the people. With or without oil, these things are tremendous assets.

I think you missed that they have tons of hydro power available which is iirc cheaper or at least on par with burning fossil fuel, so they don't even need oil. Cheap power basically runs down their hills. (Similar to how in Iceland the hot water just spawns out of the ground. Yes I'm a little jealous.)

Re: Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil fuels?

#47

Post by Norwegianguy »

dotancohen wrote: post #23

There is another reason for Norway to dig up the fossil fuels that gets little discussion: Russia. The Norwegian army's most pertinent threat is Russian invasion for the fossil-fuel reserves. It is interesting that some precious resources, such as fossil fuels, are also a great liability. In retrospect, I can think of quite a few nations that would have seen far less foreign interference and invasion had they had les…

The Norwegian armed forces' most pertinent threat is being invaded by Russia as part of a bigger east/west struggle. Russia invading for oil is unthinkable. If anything it would be a conflict over arctic drilling. Source: Am Norwegian officer.

However, it makes more sense for us to export our petroleum than to let supply decrease, driving up prices for the Russian exports.

Re: Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil fuels?

#48

Post by dotancohen »

Norwegianguy wrote: post #47
dotancohen wrote: post #23

There is another reason for Norway to dig up the fossil fuels that gets little discussion: Russia. The Norwegian army's most pertinent threat is Russian invasion for the fossil-fuel reserves. It is interesting that some precious resources, such as fossil fuels, are also a great liability. In retrospect, I can think of quite a few nations that would have seen far less foreign interference and invasion had they had les…

The Norwegian armed forces' most pertinent threat is being invaded by Russia as part of a bigger east/west struggle. Russia invading for oil is unthinkable. If anything it would be a conflict over arctic drilling. Source: Am Norwegian officer. However, it makes more sense for us to export our petroleum than to let supply decrease, driving up prices for the Russian exports.

Thank you very much for your input. I had a very interesting conversation a few years ago with a Norwegian conscript in Tromso who brought the Russian threat to my attention.

Re: Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil fuels?

#49

Post by tallanvor »

_delirium wrote: post #14
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #5

Norway is an interesting case because their own energy grid is mostly powered by renewables. However, they export huge amounts of fossil fuels to other countries: > With their hydro-powered energy grid and electric cars, they are among the world’s most enthusiastic consumers of green power, but decades of exporting oil and gas means this nation of 5.3 million enjoys a generous welfare buffer, and sits on the world’s…

While local production is mostly renewable, Norway also, at least on paper, sells much of it. Some European countries (like Germany) have imposed renewable mandates higher than local supply can support, so renewable energy has become worth more than "dirty" energy. You can arbitrage this difference by selling your clean energy through the European Energy Certificate System, and Norway is a prolific seller on that mar…

GOs are marketing gimmicks, nothing more. Norway only exports the energy that it doesn't use domestically. Germany is still the one producing the dirty energy, and that's what really counts at the end of the day. --The absurdity of GOs are only highlighted by Iceland selling GOs even though Iceland is obviously not actually exporting the energy.

Re: Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil fuels?

#50

Post by DoingIsLearning »

anovikov wrote: post #26
rootsudo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, but it's also agency too. People in those "other" countries never grew up in a safe, stable and reliable society. What they see is the old system of explore and exploit.

That's right, but here goes the question: colonialism provided a way to "export" safe, stable and reliable societies. And people rejected it. Was it a mistake?

> colonialism provided a way to "export" safe, stable and reliable societies.

I had to read this a few times to be sure this really was the point you were trying to make.

One of many examples on how this is absolutely abhorrently untrue:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free...

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