Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports • Hacker News Board

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#41

Post by asadotzler » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 10:17 AM UTC

shii wrote: post #26

asadotzler wrote: post #21

It's my opinion that when you call a Thunderbird developer "some simian" and when you tell them to "Die die die die" and "Seriously, screw you" and you say things like "You know, every time I see a comment from [a specific Thunderbird developer] I just want to reach out through the intertubes and cut off his damned fingers to prevent him ever writing any code..." and when you're warned in a very civil tone with a cle…

You're right, he is being a little abrasive there, but I'd take it in stride and enjoy; this sort of thing is normal on the Internet. And besides, he's right. Why did they replace cmd-f like that?

Yes, abrasive behavior exists. That does not mean that any project has to tolerate people who bring it regularly. Normal on the Internet is not the standard by which I want the projects I work on to be managed.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#42

Post by asadotzler » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 10:21 AM UTC

shii wrote: post #40

adw wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we accept unnecessarily abrasive behaviour as acceptable anywhere?

Because sometimes actually helpful bug reports come packaged with snarky people. I see little problem with that. There's guys like zedshaw who always flame and get flamed, yet still provide lots of value. Plus it livens things up a bit. Nothing wrong with a little sarcastic banter here and there. Some people have their panties in a tight knot sometimes over some silly things. Not everything has to be so srs bznss all…

Being a founding father of GNU does not give you the right to be a bully. Telling a developer that you want to cut off his hands so he can't program is not helpful and people who behave like that are not useful bug reporters. They are bullies and they are toxic to an open source project. No project should tolerate personal attacks like that.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#43

Post by gojomo » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 10:23 AM UTC

asadotzler wrote: post #38

gojomo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this report is representative, I don't think a thousand similar reports would deserve a ban. There's some exasperation, some sarcasm, some foot-stomping while expressing strong opinions. But there's no profanity or insults. The strongest negative word used is 'stupid', and it's applied to a question in the UI, not any person. The details and rationale for considering the software's behavior an interaction faux pas…

You missed the reports where he called developers simians, shouted "screw you" and said he'd like to cut off a specific developers hands so he couldn't code any more. (by the way, bugzilla is totally searchable, so if you want, you can see this stuff for yourself before you step up to defend a bully.)

Then why not announce the ban after those blatant transgressions, or the next blatant one if they arrive reliably, rather than after a mild one?

BTW, a simple Bugzilla search for [Richard Mlynarik] returns "Zarro Boogs found". Similarly, a Google search for [site:bugzilla.mozilla.org Mlynarik simian] returns nothing.

I'm sure I'll find the right kind of search eventually – I did find a Mlynarik 'screw you' comment via Google – but if the action is justified by examples with exact quotes, you might as well supply links rather than leave many people searching.

And why personalize this by accusing me of "stepping up to defend a bully"? I've addressed the exact action and manner of action taken in the above-referenced report, with the caveat that other examples would change the analysis. I've defended the precise comment in the 'compact dialog' report, not the person's history.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#44

Post by Deestan » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 10:23 AM UTC

asadotzler wrote: post #33

bdfh42 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct - it was a great bug report. Without the expression of frustration then the nature of the bug would not have been clear. Reports like this from my customers would be brilliant.

Would you like your customers saying "screw you" and "I want to cut off your hands so you can't program any more"? I wouldn't.

Of course not, but the one time they are acceptably civil isn't the time to bring out the ban hammer.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#45

Post by hollerith » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 10:26 AM UTC

Reminds me of Eric Naggum on comp.lang.lisp in the late 1990s. Although I have no memories of Eric's ever threatening anyone with violence, he wrote hundreds of very long very angry harangues, most containing insults and ad-hominems -- and (unlike Richard Mlynarik) he seemed to believe deep down that his debating opponents wanted to harm him.

As in the present case, people argued that for Eric to continue his abuse would harm Lisp by driving away contributors and adoptees. Difference is that it was very difficult to ban someone from a newsgroup, and Eric never was.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#46

Post by asadotzler » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 10:28 AM UTC

jerrya wrote: post #3

Richard Mlynarik is a hacker with a deservedly excellent reputation. And sometimes he has a sharp tongue which in context can be both enjoyable and terrifying. But here's the important part for entrepreneurs: what percentage of users of mozilla products or any product bother to submit bug reports? What Richard is doing here is investing his time into making Mozilla better. I am always amazed at the projects and compa…

I am amazed at projects that allow toxic people to disrupt and mistreat other project members. I'm amazed when people defend bullies because they've got some kind of oldschool hacker credibility.

Not having to listen to "a hacker with a deservedly excellent reputation" say he'd like to cut off your hands so you can't code any more is absolutely not a loss to the project. It's a proper and right kind of excision to remove toxic bullies like that no matter how correct was the substance of their report.

(And as it turns out, the overwhelming majority of his reports were duplicates of existing reports, so it's not even a loss of the actual bug reports, just the nasty name calling and abusive and threatening behavior. I call that a win for the project.)

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#47

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 10:30 AM UTC

asadotzler wrote: post #42

shii wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because sometimes actually helpful bug reports come packaged with snarky people. I see little problem with that. There's guys like zedshaw who always flame and get flamed, yet still provide lots of value. Plus it livens things up a bit. Nothing wrong with a little sarcastic banter here and there. Some people have their panties in a tight knot sometimes over some silly things. Not everything has to be so srs bznss all…

Being a founding father of GNU does not give you the right to be a bully. Telling a developer that you want to cut off his hands so he can't program is not helpful and people who behave like that are not useful bug reporters. They are bullies and they are toxic to an open source project. No project should tolerate personal attacks like that.

[deleted]

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#48

Post by ww520 » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 10:30 AM UTC

keyle wrote: post #30

I'd call this "how not to deal with customer feedbacks". If it were paying customers, they'd have none left with this attitude!

Sure you can take abuse when you are paid, except they are doing it for free and deserve better treatment.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#49

Post by asadotzler » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 10:32 AM UTC

vijaydev wrote: post #37

asadotzler wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you could look if you wanted to. How about when he called Thunderbird developers simians and said he wanted to cut off their hands so they couldn't program any more? Is that out of line enough for you? What about saying "screw you" and calling developers children. I consider all of that out of line. He was being a bully and he got banned for it. Good on Dan Mosedale. Bullies suck and we shouldn't let them pollute…

Yes, I saw one in a link posted above. Definitely out of line. No second thoughts on that. If the ban had happened in reply to one such post, it would have been unquestioned by many.

Yeah, unfortunately for everyone he was only warned on the worst of the interactions and given a second chance. Sometimes a ban on the first offense is better. Still, a ban after a failure to heed a warning seems completely reasonable. Heck, a re-evaluation of the original interaction with the knowledge of how he behaved after the warning would have worked too. But again, the important thing isn't where the ban happened, it's that the project rejected a bully.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#50

Post by wladimir » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 10:35 AM UTC

vijaydev wrote: post #5

wladimir wrote: post #4

Good. When filing bug reports you should try to work with the team and be as helpful as possible in solving the issue. Being a dick does not help anyone.

Expressing frustrations is not being a dick.

Even though it may be hard in some cases, having some self-control here will only help you. Bug reports (or helpdesks, for that matter) are not the place to express frustration.