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First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

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Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#41

Post by Tenoke »

WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote: post #35
rank0 wrote: post #17

25 is a pretty fat dose. Seems excessive for a scientific study... I always wonder how these people running the studies choose their doses. Do we want the participants to have a smooth/pleasant trip? Or have an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space? This reminds me of another study I read where participants were given 100+mg doses of liquid ketamine straight to the dome. The participants frequently k-h…

> Do we want the participants to have a smooth/pleasant trip? Or have an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space? A bit ignorant here. Isn’t this 25mg? Or, is this a more concentrated dose than say normal shrooms where anywhere from 0.5-1-2g to even 5g would take you to the moon? Seems reasonable to be honest.

The relationship between psilocybin and mushrooms is like the one between caffeine and coffee.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#42

Post by rank0 »

Tenoke wrote: post #30
rank0 wrote: post #17

25 is a pretty fat dose. Seems excessive for a scientific study... I always wonder how these people running the studies choose their doses. Do we want the participants to have a smooth/pleasant trip? Or have an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space? This reminds me of another study I read where participants were given 100+mg doses of liquid ketamine straight to the dome. The participants frequently k-h…

25 is as they say 'medium-to-heavy dose'. It's not as excessively high as you make it sound and it isn't quite 'an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space' It's definitely a 'proper trip' but you are making it seem like a DMT breakthrough amount.

Everyone has different bodies and react differently to drugs. I can assure you that 25mg is a heavy dose especially for those who are not experienced with psychedelics. My whole point is that some of these tests are being administered by scientists who have no experience with the drug, and maybe they should be more careful.

I would use different language to describe a DMT trip, but the imagery wasn't supposed to be the main focus of my comment. Just for an additional reference check out this old study and its take on dosage:

https://erowid.org/references/texts/show/5665docid5442

administered 20-70mg but eventually settled on "30 mg. as a standard, moderate dose". But'moderate' may mean many things. Leary, later in the same paper, says "Psilocybin produces temporary states of spiritual conversion, interpersonal closeness and psychological insight. Forty-five percent of the entire inmate group clearly underwent a mystical, transcendent, death-rebirth experience."

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#43

Post by rank0 »

mtalantikite wrote: post #39
Tenoke wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

25 is as they say 'medium-to-heavy dose'. It's not as excessively high as you make it sound and it isn't quite 'an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space' It's definitely a 'proper trip' but you are making it seem like a DMT breakthrough amount.

Yeah, agreed. I know mushrooms are highly variable in their psilocybin and psilocin content, but it’s generally around 1% of dried mass for cubensis from what I’ve read. So in this case that’s what, 2.5 grams of mushrooms about? That’s not nothing, but it certainly isn’t an ego death sort of dose. I know a lot of people that will take 3.5 grams for a typical “journey” when they’re seeking to get in there and do some…

I guess we can agree to disagree. You can absolutely experience ego death in this range (or at least 'ego-shaking'). An 1/8th is pretty normal yeah for the typical recreational user, but I don't think that's a great benchmark for a science experiment. Lots of people have scary unpleasant experiences with an 1/8 or less.

Pharmaceutical grade psilocybin is gonna be a lot more potent than average street mushrooms.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#44

Post by TheHwangover »

rank0 wrote: post #17

25 is a pretty fat dose. Seems excessive for a scientific study... I always wonder how these people running the studies choose their doses. Do we want the participants to have a smooth/pleasant trip? Or have an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space? This reminds me of another study I read where participants were given 100+mg doses of liquid ketamine straight to the dome. The participants frequently k-h…

Hmm.. I'd argue you need that 'melt-your-fucking-face' experience to truly experience breakthrough. But then again, people react differently to everything

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#45

Post by rank0 »

lipman wrote: post #34
rank0 wrote: post #17

25 is a pretty fat dose. Seems excessive for a scientific study... I always wonder how these people running the studies choose their doses. Do we want the participants to have a smooth/pleasant trip? Or have an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space? This reminds me of another study I read where participants were given 100+mg doses of liquid ketamine straight to the dome. The participants frequently k-h…

You might expect 35mg psilocybin from 1/8 oz of mushrooms, which is a pretty mid to high, all day trip dose. So 25mg is strong but definitely not "ego death" strong.

Psilocybin content varies wildly in street mushrooms. I don't think a comparison between pharmaceutical grade psilocybin and illicit uncontrolled mushrooms is very useful.

I've witnessed lots of people losing their shit after eating an eighth.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#46

Post by Tenoke »

rank0 wrote: post #45
lipman wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might expect 35mg psilocybin from 1/8 oz of mushrooms, which is a pretty mid to high, all day trip dose. So 25mg is strong but definitely not "ego death" strong.

Psilocybin content varies wildly in street mushrooms. I don't think a comparison between pharmaceutical grade psilocybin and illicit uncontrolled mushrooms is very useful. I've witnessed lots of people losing their shit after eating an eighth.

It's still the same substance. The main difference is that with street mushrooms there's risk the dosage will be much higher, and that risk isn't there with a properly measured dose in a study.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#47

Post by spiritplumber »

neom wrote: post #27
arpa wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Psychedelic psychotherapy was left as a casualty to the war on drugs.

There is also an argument to be made that Timothy Leary made a real mess of things and at minimum, certainly didn't help the situation any.

I've helped scan and archive Timothy Leary's stuff (I was dating his testamentary executor for a while). He certainly had an interesting life! I don't see how he made a mess of things.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#48

Post by spiritplumber »

ipaddr wrote: post #18
TaupeRanger wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You criticize the study but don't provide any arguments against the methodology. Tell us what you know about WHY they give people low doses in the control group, then explain why you think a different method would be better. These aren't idiots designing studies.

Not the parent but perhaps allowing for a third group with no antidepression medication.

How would one make that work though in this case?

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#49

Post by neom »

spiritplumber wrote: post #47
neom wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also an argument to be made that Timothy Leary made a real mess of things and at minimum, certainly didn't help the situation any.

I've helped scan and archive Timothy Leary's stuff (I was dating his testamentary executor for a while). He certainly had an interesting life! I don't see how he made a mess of things.

First and foremost, thank you for your work! And I would certainly say you're likely considerably more versed than I. From my research, I felt like his escapades at Millbrook and also his shenanigans with harvard did 2 things: On Millbrook, pushed away from his work as serious work and more towards play, that rubbed people the wrong way. On Harvard, I don't think the universities were as open to ideas in that direction after he caused a ruckus. I did quite a bit of research, but it was years ago, if you wanna drop me an email I'll see if I can rustle up the things that lead me down that thought path and send them over, it was mostly from interviews of others around that time.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#50

Post by rank0 »

Tenoke wrote: post #46
rank0 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Psilocybin content varies wildly in street mushrooms. I don't think a comparison between pharmaceutical grade psilocybin and illicit uncontrolled mushrooms is very useful. I've witnessed lots of people losing their shit after eating an eighth.

It's still the same substance. The main difference is that with street mushrooms there's risk the dosage will be much higher, and that risk isn't there with a properly measured dose in a study.

Yep same substance but you misunderstand my point.

The risk here is that street mushrooms usually are going to be LESS potent than people think. What happens now, is that people pull the random statistic out of thin air saying "well 3.5g is about 35mg psilocybin so 25mg is good for the study." In reality, this dosage might end up being much higher than many of the positive anecdotes about "eating an eighth". And again, there's a million horror stories that use that same 3.5g weight.

That's why its silly to compare pharma-grade psilocybin with anecdotal evidence of street mushroom potency.

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