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Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

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Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#41

Post by rsj_hn »

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #28
1-6 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, Tesla is starting to build their battery packs in-frame so it'll become harder to repair. https://electrek.co/2021/01/19/tesla-structural-battery-pack...

A real shame since electric cars are extremely simple. There’s not a panoply of different parts that slowly wear out and need to be troubleshooted separately and replaced at different times. It’s basically the battery pack and brakes.

There are suspension systems, heating/AC, doors, sunroofs, motors controlling windows and doors, sealants around the same, lights, infotainment systems, seats and seat controls and motors controlling these, power steering, heat pumps, multiple cameras (each of which can fail), huge numbers of sensors (including radar), as well as wiring between the cameras and sensors and all other other components, differentials, brakes, brake regeneration, transmission (yes, Tesla has a transmission, just a simple one), engine, and battery.

All of these can suffer failure and require replacing. Even if they are unlikely to wear out in normal circumstances, people get into fender benders, and there are always exceptional circumstances. Given the huge number of parts and miles of wiring, the average owner can expect exceptional failures on a few parts. All modern cars are extremely complex, even if the drivetrain is simplified.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#42

Post by illwrks »

the_af wrote: post #8

I was re-reading (ok, actually trying to finish yet again) Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and I think some of what Pirsig says at the beginning of the book applies here. Namely, the division between people who just want things to work and hope "somebody" else will step in when a fix is needed, and those who understand the abstraction sometimes leaks, and you need to be able to dig in and at least know how…

That reminds me... I was converting some VHS tapes for a family member and one was of an event on a farm where a trailer had tipped over in a slope damaging something on the axel.

Cut to a short time later and the clip continues with the farmers welding and repairing using logs to prop up parts of it.

They would have been seriously impacted if they needed too wait for days/weeks for a appointment to have it repaired.

There is no excuse for having something not be repairable, especially if you have the knowledge and need to be able to repair your things.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#43

Post by mqus »

JoshTko wrote: post #10
gogopuppygogo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right to repair is not about making devices more repairable but about enabling us to buy parts and service from third parties outside the manufacturers. Apple has begun serializing parts. You cannot take a camera from one iPhone 12 and put it into another iPhone 12 because Apple serialized the camera to the phone it shipped with. They are beyond reasonable with this kind of hostile approach to repair.

I think Apple is justifiably terrified of a 3rd party battery, installed by someone with 5 minutes of training, causing a fire and making headlines.

Apple is terrified of bad headlines? That's news to me.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#44

Post by xmodem »

fortran77 wrote: post #27
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kinda hoping that there will be legislation or standardization for battery packs. As it stands, when that battery pack is end-of-life, the whole car will be scrapped because it's not financially viable to have a new one installed. But if it's standardized, if it's EOL the battery pack can be replaced with either a new, better battery (e.g. solid state) or a refurbished / secondhand battery. And the EOL battery pa…

According to many sources, for example this CNET article, cars are one of the best-recycled products around, with "86%" (according to this article) of the material in a car recycled to use again: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/recyclable-cars-what-part...

That sort of metric is counting by weight, which I'm not sure can be directly compared to other products. Google says the average compact car weights 1324 kg, the un-recyclable porition of that is equivalant to one hell of a lot of iPhones.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#45

Post by ghaff »

kevbin wrote: post #38

> Connecticut, Colorado, Delaware, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Missouri, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, Oklahoma, Oregon, and Washington state are all considering broad [right-to-repair] laws that would apply to most of the stuff we use everyday. Meanwhile, in Sacramento, it is illegal to repair your own car at your own home. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26421495

Massachusetts had to go for round 2 of their legislation because Tesla in particular was using a loophole to get around it: https://www.vice.com/en/article/93wy8v/newly-passed-right-to...

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#46

Post by the_af »

gcanyon wrote: post #22
the_af wrote: post #8

I was re-reading (ok, actually trying to finish yet again) Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and I think some of what Pirsig says at the beginning of the book applies here. Namely, the division between people who just want things to work and hope "somebody" else will step in when a fix is needed, and those who understand the abstraction sometimes leaks, and you need to be able to dig in and at least know how…

First: I can't imagine not finishing Zen -- it is among my top ten books. Second: I agree, no one should be forced to be "powerless" about the hardware they own. But right to repair is exactly that: I don't want a phone with a detachable battery and upgradable memory -- that means the phone isn't waterproof and/or is much thicker and heavier. I don't want to force people to have the phone I prefer, but I also don't w…

> First: I can't imagine not finishing Zen -- it is among my top ten books.

Well, I'm making a second attempt. I really liked it the first time, but it requires a certain state of enjoy -- skim reading it just won't do.

I think Pirsig would understand why it took me years. He makes a point about slowness and not rushing things, the journey vs the destination.

> I also don't want the kind of phone right to repair would force me to have.

So you're in John Sutherland's camp, with his trusty BMW R60 that requires no involvement on his part -- till it does, of course, and it frustrates him.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#47

Post by fasteddie31003 »

kevbin wrote: post #38

> Connecticut, Colorado, Delaware, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Missouri, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, Oklahoma, Oregon, and Washington state are all considering broad [right-to-repair] laws that would apply to most of the stuff we use everyday. Meanwhile, in Sacramento, it is illegal to repair your own car at your own home. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26421495

Just looked into that law. It does exist https://code-enforcement.saccounty.net/Programs/pages/autore... I remember when I lived in SF and I would repair my own car and everyone kinda looked at me weird. Maybe it was because people probably thought I was stealing a catalytic converter or something.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#48

Post by the_af »

bzzzt wrote: post #31
the_af wrote: post #8

I was re-reading (ok, actually trying to finish yet again) Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and I think some of what Pirsig says at the beginning of the book applies here. Namely, the division between people who just want things to work and hope "somebody" else will step in when a fix is needed, and those who understand the abstraction sometimes leaks, and you need to be able to dig in and at least know how…

Just wondering: if there was a 'right to repair' on computers in the 60's, would Intel have made an integrated microprocessor? I mean: you can't just fix a dead register by replacing it anymore... Lots of electronics have become more reliable by being fully integrated units. I prefer a durable phone to a repairable phone that needs constant replacements.

Pirsig couldn't fix or understand every component of his motorcycle, but he advocated having some degree of control over the components he did understand and knew how to fix or jury-rig. His anecdote about using tin from beer cans to jury-rig a simple fix -- and the wounded reaction to it by his friend John -- is enlightening.

It's not all or nothing.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#49

Post by smoldesu »

bzzzt wrote: post #24
spamizbad wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, then why is the camera serialized and not the battery (which, incidentally, you CAN replace on the iPhone 12)?

Just guessing: - it's a component of the Face ID authentication scheme - they don't want people using iPhones with sub-par camera's posting on social media - they don't want iPhones with sub-par camera's on the second hand market

Then don't let it take sub-par cameras. I don't give a rats ass about serialized components as long as I can still buy and install the factory parts.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#50

Post by freedom42 »

the_af wrote: post #8

I was re-reading (ok, actually trying to finish yet again) Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and I think some of what Pirsig says at the beginning of the book applies here. Namely, the division between people who just want things to work and hope "somebody" else will step in when a fix is needed, and those who understand the abstraction sometimes leaks, and you need to be able to dig in and at least know how…

The thing is even if people don't wanna repair themselves they might wanna change a battery. Or get something minor done cheaply by a 3rd party. But Apple goes so far out of the way to kill third party repair. They even put special screws in their machines to screw you.

Edit: The EU pushed right to repair, right? Now see what Apple did to screw France [1]. Their latest and greatest devices somehow have a repairability score of around 6.5/10. How is it possible?

[1] https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/02/26/apple-now-display...

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