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Tuna’s Last Stand

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Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#41

Post by graeme »

sokoloff wrote: post #25
graeme wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s kind of a silly assumption frankly. Even on fish cans in the grocery store some advertise themselves as sustainably fished with certifications, and some don’t. Some egg cartons advertise themselves as “free range” and some don’t. Some meat advertises itself as “grass fed” and others don’t. The products themselves are telling you there are a variety of production standards and it is almost willful blindness to…

Grass-fed beef is advertised that way primarily for nutritional and taste claims and to support/explain the higher prices charged.

That’s one reason. It’s also widely known it is healthier for the cattle and has them out on pasture rather than in cages.

The reason people argue the meat is more nutritious is because the cows are healthier via eating their natural diet.

Corn diets cause health problems and bacterial infections requiring antibiotics.

Some of this will literally be on the websites of farms selling pastured beef. It’s not a big secret and if you seek out pastured beef it’s likely familiar.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/05/010511074623.h...

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#42

Post by chriskanan »

GordonS wrote: post #33
galangalalgol wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly eat salmon, but I'd love to switch to smaller fish. Does anyone know a good way to get herring or sardines other than canned? Apart from being more expensive due to preparation, even bpa free can liners worry me a bit. Frozen would be ideal.

The vast majority of salmon is farmed, so sustainable in the sense that it isn't going to diminish wild stocks. There are arguments against open-pen aquaculture too of course, but it's all relative. And a lot of money is being spent on solving those issues, such as deep sea aquaculture (where the effluent isn't a big problem, compared to static coastal pens), closed-containment (where all waste can be collected and u…

Farmed fish isn't necessarily sustainable. It depends on the species. For some species, e.g., eel, they are farm raised but they are wild caught when young. For eel, we have not been able to get them to lay eggs that could be hatched and they take 10-25 years to reach sexual maturity [0]. Eels are not doing very well at all.

Moreover, farmed fish are often fed wild fish, so that could have some strong negative impact on ecosystems.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eel_life_history

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_fish_feed#Sustain...

https://www.tampabay.com/things-to-do/food/cooking/The-facts...

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#43

Post by toomuchtodo »

EvanKRob wrote: post #29

Go to the Tokyo Fish Market if you really want your eyes opened. 1500 tons of fish brought in every day. They just scoop up everything they can get their nets on and sell it at the market. Truly eye-opening experience.

And people panic when there are discussions of population decline as if these levels of resource extraction are sustainable.

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#44

Post by Maursault »

pirate787 wrote: post #10
theobeers wrote: post #2

> “All industrial fisheries, with very few exceptions, are ultimately drained of life after a certain time,” says Daniel Pauly, a University of British Columbia fisheries biologist. “They increase and push, push, until they collapse. Why should skipjack tuna be any different?” There you have it.

It is about the "tragedy of the commons", not any specific feature of industrial fishing. Indeed, where industrial fishing has assigned property rights, like with fish farming, there are no issues with systemic collapse.

> It is about "tragedy of the commons", not any specific feature of industrial fishing.

I am certain the TotC is a feature of commercial fishing, and I am perplexed how anyone could separate the two. Overfishing, driven by greed ("Take what you can; give nothing back" [1]), itself is a specific feature of commercial fishing. [2] But I agree with your second statement, though the situation is more complex than merely the problem of fishing all of the fish and the collapse of entire species. [3] What I also believe is desperately needed is an indefinite moratorium on fishing anywhere beyond coastal territories. [4]

[1] Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl, 2003 (though this phrase actually originates from Caribbean pirates, though the original meaning concerns lines: when pulling a ship into a dock, to pull in as much slack as you can and don't let it go. In only a literal sense it seems it very much applies to commercial fishing.

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overfishing#Examples_and_evide...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_fishin...

[4] https://e360.yale.edu/features/a-global-ban-on-fishing-on-th...

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#45

Post by justinator »

phonon wrote: post #39
galangalalgol wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly eat salmon, but I'd love to switch to smaller fish. Does anyone know a good way to get herring or sardines other than canned? Apart from being more expensive due to preparation, even bpa free can liners worry me a bit. Frozen would be ideal.

Jarred herring is pretty common. Whole Foods carries https://products.wholefoodsmarket.com/brand/blue-hill-bay which are quite delicious. Note: don't overdo it with the small fishes. They have high levels of purines which cause gout.

Technically, I don't think it's correct to say that purines cause gout; but that the inability to break down purines causes gout. What's the root cause of that? Kidney dysfunction, and a history of bad diet, bad exercise habits.

It could very well be that switching to a better diet that includes foods like sardines is beneficial and even a net positive to someone who is susceptible to gout even though sardines have higher levels of purines than other foods.

I never knew I'd like - or even crave canned herring but I have to say: it's absolutely delicious. Because of the essentially destruction and collapse of the ocean's fisheries, the majority of fish I eat these days is just canned sardines. Compared to say wild caught tuna, they're pretty sustainable (although again: the details are complicated).

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#46

Post by IshKebab »

Ensorceled wrote: post #40
IshKebab wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhm... did you look at them? They both use very very similar shades of blue for all of the series which makes them impossible to distinguish. The second graph is a little better but even in that one the very similarly coloured blue lines cross each other so you have to really look closely to figure out which is which.

Yes. They both could have been better but both communicate their key message. I guess the point is ... I've seen many, many examples of worse graphs, graphs where the point was obscured or graphs that were deliberately misleading; so I'm trying to figure out how these two are worthy of appearing in a presentation.

Hilariously bad colour choices. If you're talking about colour these are good examples of how not to do it.

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#47

Post by TomSwirly »

gambiting wrote: post #11
11235813213455 wrote: post #9

Are fisheries guilty? Are regulators and governments guilty? I think the guilty side are end-consumers, particularly in rich countries, people themselves and their lifestyle (ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_food#Impact ) note: I haven't eat a gram of fish or meat since more than a decade (mostly because I don't feel the need, being already full with local products: fruits, plants, legumes, rice

I'm sorry, but I refuse to feel guilty and I don't see why anyone should. When I go to the store and buy some tuna I expect that it was responsibly fished. If it wasn't then it's the fault of our government and regulation, regular customer shouldn't be worried about that. The same with meat - when I buy some I expect that animals weren't abused and beaten at farms, if they were then there's an issue in the system.

No, just because there's no law against it doesn't make it morally right.

> there's an issue in the system.

But everyone else is just as apathetic as you, so there's no incentive to ever change anything.

You say, "The government should ban this!" and the government says, "People are buying and eating this, so in a Democratic system we can't ban this!"

You slough off responsibility on them - they slough it off on you - you all convince yourselves you have no possibility at all.

Also - I'm curious - have you ever contacted your representatives? Asked them to do anything about it?

I'm sure when the tuna finally goes, you'll say, "Yes, I ate tuna all my life, but I bear no responsibility - it's everyone else's fault."

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#48

Post by gambiting »

TomSwirly wrote: post #47
gambiting wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to feel guilty and I don't see why anyone should. When I go to the store and buy some tuna I expect that it was responsibly fished. If it wasn't then it's the fault of our government and regulation, regular customer shouldn't be worried about that. The same with meat - when I buy some I expect that animals weren't abused and beaten at farms, if they were then there's an issue in the system.

No, just because there's no law against it doesn't make it morally right. > there's an issue in the system. But everyone else is just as apathetic as you, so there's no incentive to ever change anything. You say, "The government should ban this!" and the government says, "People are buying and eating this, so in a Democratic system we can't ban this!" You slough off responsibility on them - they slough it off on you…

>>No, just because there's no law against it doesn't make it morally right.

Wait, are you replying to the right comment?

>>Also - I'm curious - have you ever contacted your representatives? Asked them to do anything about it?

Yes, I have. Have you?

>>But everyone else is just as apathetic as you, so there's no incentive to ever change anything.

Again, I feel like you're replying to the wrong comment. I feel like I live in a country with a very strong regulatory framework and things like fishing are treated very seriously with strong quotas on what can be caught not to overfish, and canned fish has to be clearly labeled where it came from and how it was caught. So I'm not sure which part of what I said comes across as apathetic to you.

>>I'm sure when the tuna finally goes, you'll say, "Yes, I ate tuna all my life, but I bear no responsibility - it's everyone else's fault."

I'll definitely say that it's the fault of the agencies tasked with protecting the flora and fauna that they are responsible for, not the consumers for eating tuna.

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#50

Post by gambiting »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #35
gambiting wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to feel guilty and I don't see why anyone should. When I go to the store and buy some tuna I expect that it was responsibly fished. If it wasn't then it's the fault of our government and regulation, regular customer shouldn't be worried about that. The same with meat - when I buy some I expect that animals weren't abused and beaten at farms, if they were then there's an issue in the system.

> I'm sorry, but I refuse to feel guilty Then you're not sorry. > When I go to the store and buy some tuna I expect that it was responsibly fished. If it wasn't then it's the fault of our government and regulation, regular customer shouldn't be worried about that. How do you think regulations come to be? If a consumer wants a product, a company finds a way to provide it. The company will poison the land, sea and sky…

>>Ultimately, you, and everyone like you, are the reason we can't have nice things.

Because I expect to live in a country with a strong regulatory framework where if I buy something in a store I don't have to worry whether it was produced in an ethical way?

You're right, I'm the problem. Thanks mate.

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