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Tuna’s Last Stand

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Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#21

Post by atleta »

11235813213455 wrote: post #9

Are fisheries guilty? Are regulators and governments guilty? I think the guilty side are end-consumers, particularly in rich countries, people themselves and their lifestyle (ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_food#Impact ) note: I haven't eat a gram of fish or meat since more than a decade (mostly because I don't feel the need, being already full with local products: fruits, plants, legumes, rice

Finger pointing doesn't help. Whataboutism doesn't help. It doesn't matter who is guilty. There are obviously multiple actors with different (but seemingly aligned) interests acting in concert and causing the problem. What what matters is where you can efficiently intervene in the process.

Telling every customer to change their habits (or just feel guilty) sounds good, probably has some effect but it's not enough. Controlling e.g. the much smaller number of producers is a lot simpler. Also, taxing the product (the end product that the guilty consumers can buy) may also work. Most likely you need to apply multiple measures at multiple points in this process.

E.g. I think convincing the customers works best in the long run and more like for general purposes. I.e. understand that you should consume less, use a smaller footprint in general, as you mentioned. But that doesn't necessarily easily translate to "don't buy tuna and milk". It's easier to translate it into "vote for the guy who promises to handle this case even if it means tax raises". And then you can simply go to the store and expect that whatever you see there is OK to buy at that price. Yes, tuna will be say 10x more expensive and thus you'll buy it less frequently (and maybe not feed it to your cat).

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#22

Post by gambiting »

usrusr wrote: post #19
gambiting wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to feel guilty and I don't see why anyone should. When I go to the store and buy some tuna I expect that it was responsibly fished. If it wasn't then it's the fault of our government and regulation, regular customer shouldn't be worried about that. The same with meat - when I buy some I expect that animals weren't abused and beaten at farms, if they were then there's an issue in the system.

Tuna is hunted wildlife, an international commons. It's clearly evident that no regulation will happen anytime soon that will actually make a difference. If you buy it, you are part of the problem, either ignorantly or knowingly. Occasionally I find myself in some gastronomy setting were nothing in the menu appeals to me other than the dishes containing tuna and then I eat it, and enjoy it a lot. It happens less than…

I'm sorry, but tuna being farmed in international waters shouldn't be an obstacle. In all EU countries and UK there are quotas of what a fishing vessel can bring into port. So it doesn't matter where the fish was actually caught, if the country ran out of annual quota for tuna for instance, then no fishing vessel can bring any tuna to any port. It's not an insurmountable problem.

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#23

Post by gambiting »

____throwaway6 wrote: post #20
gambiting wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to feel guilty and I don't see why anyone should. When I go to the store and buy some tuna I expect that it was responsibly fished. If it wasn't then it's the fault of our government and regulation, regular customer shouldn't be worried about that. The same with meat - when I buy some I expect that animals weren't abused and beaten at farms, if they were then there's an issue in the system.

> I go to the store and buy some tuna I expect that it was responsibly fished. If it wasn't then it's the fault of our government and regulation I eat canned tuna also, but that logic doesn’t work generally. By the same logic you could say that if you could buy a BB gun, it’s ok to shoot people with it, because it must not be harmful. Come to think of it, that’s what kids did to each other when I was growing up.

But a BB gun specifically comes with a warning not to shoot people because it might cause harm, not to mention that regulations around fake and/or air guns are pretty hardcore already.

To maybe give another example - as a consumer I shouldn't care if a phone I'm buying was made using child labour or not - I expect the authorities in every country involved in its production to enforce laws against child labour.

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#24

Post by whatastory »

gambiting wrote: post #11
11235813213455 wrote: post #9

Are fisheries guilty? Are regulators and governments guilty? I think the guilty side are end-consumers, particularly in rich countries, people themselves and their lifestyle (ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_food#Impact ) note: I haven't eat a gram of fish or meat since more than a decade (mostly because I don't feel the need, being already full with local products: fruits, plants, legumes, rice

I'm sorry, but I refuse to feel guilty and I don't see why anyone should. When I go to the store and buy some tuna I expect that it was responsibly fished. If it wasn't then it's the fault of our government and regulation, regular customer shouldn't be worried about that. The same with meat - when I buy some I expect that animals weren't abused and beaten at farms, if they were then there's an issue in the system.

You can expect anything you want. Doesn’t make your expectations realistic or absolve you of responsibility, though.

Nobody’s going to step in and change things if it’s easy money and people will keep buying it and shifting blame. It doesn’t work that way.

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#25

Post by sokoloff »

graeme wrote: post #17
gambiting wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to feel guilty and I don't see why anyone should. When I go to the store and buy some tuna I expect that it was responsibly fished. If it wasn't then it's the fault of our government and regulation, regular customer shouldn't be worried about that. The same with meat - when I buy some I expect that animals weren't abused and beaten at farms, if they were then there's an issue in the system.

That’s kind of a silly assumption frankly. Even on fish cans in the grocery store some advertise themselves as sustainably fished with certifications, and some don’t. Some egg cartons advertise themselves as “free range” and some don’t. Some meat advertises itself as “grass fed” and others don’t. The products themselves are telling you there are a variety of production standards and it is almost willful blindness to…

Grass-fed beef is advertised that way primarily for nutritional and taste claims and to support/explain the higher prices charged.

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#26

Post by galangalalgol »

theobeers wrote: post #2

> “All industrial fisheries, with very few exceptions, are ultimately drained of life after a certain time,” says Daniel Pauly, a University of British Columbia fisheries biologist. “They increase and push, push, until they collapse. Why should skipjack tuna be any different?” There you have it.

I mostly eat salmon, but I'd love to switch to smaller fish. Does anyone know a good way to get herring or sardines other than canned? Apart from being more expensive due to preparation, even bpa free can liners worry me a bit. Frozen would be ideal.

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#27

Post by the-dude »

11235813213455 wrote: post #9

Are fisheries guilty? Are regulators and governments guilty? I think the guilty side are end-consumers, particularly in rich countries, people themselves and their lifestyle (ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_food#Impact ) note: I haven't eat a gram of fish or meat since more than a decade (mostly because I don't feel the need, being already full with local products: fruits, plants, legumes, rice

If you don't eat fish, it will just drive down the price and be fed to your cat.

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#28

Post by shlant »

gambiting wrote: post #11
11235813213455 wrote: post #9

Are fisheries guilty? Are regulators and governments guilty? I think the guilty side are end-consumers, particularly in rich countries, people themselves and their lifestyle (ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_food#Impact ) note: I haven't eat a gram of fish or meat since more than a decade (mostly because I don't feel the need, being already full with local products: fruits, plants, legumes, rice

I'm sorry, but I refuse to feel guilty and I don't see why anyone should. When I go to the store and buy some tuna I expect that it was responsibly fished. If it wasn't then it's the fault of our government and regulation, regular customer shouldn't be worried about that. The same with meat - when I buy some I expect that animals weren't abused and beaten at farms, if they were then there's an issue in the system.

"The consumer is completely to blame" is definitely ridiculous.

"As a consumer I have no responsibility in what products I choose to buy" is equally ridiculous.

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#29

Post by EvanKRob »

Go to the Tokyo Fish Market if you really want your eyes opened. 1500 tons of fish brought in every day. They just scoop up everything they can get their nets on and sell it at the market. Truly eye-opening experience.

Re: Tuna’s Last Stand

#30

Post by ghaff »

galangalalgol wrote: post #26
theobeers wrote: post #2

> “All industrial fisheries, with very few exceptions, are ultimately drained of life after a certain time,” says Daniel Pauly, a University of British Columbia fisheries biologist. “They increase and push, push, until they collapse. Why should skipjack tuna be any different?” There you have it.

I mostly eat salmon, but I'd love to switch to smaller fish. Does anyone know a good way to get herring or sardines other than canned? Apart from being more expensive due to preparation, even bpa free can liners worry me a bit. Frozen would be ideal.

Frozen sardines can be found in the US although not nearly as commonly as other fish. I've seen fresh sardines in Whole Foods but very rarely.
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