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Detroit DIYer cooks up stronger, lighter steel, shames scientists

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Re: Detroit DIYer cooks up stronger, lighter steel, shames scientists

#41

Post by hugh3 »

noonespecial wrote: post #37
cheez wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you suggest society repay the guy who invented the material? I can't think of any way except a temporary monopoly on its use.

The problem is that as it stands now, someone like Intellectual Ventures will have a patent like "cooling metal with water", and either force him to sell for a few hundred bucks or just interfere with anyone else who actually tries to do this. It'll be 20 years before anyone figures out a way through all of the legal mess and starts production. Even then, it will cost more, not less thanks to this.

Well no, because nobody does or legally could possibly have a patent on cooling metal with water. So I'm not sure what your point is.

It strikes me that many of the folks who most stridently object to patent law don't actually know much about it.

Re: Detroit DIYer cooks up stronger, lighter steel, shames scientists

#42

Post by hugh3 »

VMG wrote: post #38
burgerbrain wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvoted because there is no reason to start a patents discussion in a materials science article.

When is the time then? This is a very good specific example.

Maybe on an article which mentions patents?

Patent law does seem to be one of those "classic flamewar topics" which I doubt anybody has anything especially new to say about. And the fact that somebody invented a new metal doesn't change the terms of the debate or provide anyone with new information, people have been inventing new metals (and things analogous to new metals) for a long time.

Re: Detroit DIYer cooks up stronger, lighter steel, shames scientists

#44

Post by politician »

burgerbrain wrote: post #36
politician wrote: post #31

I think it's fair to point out that /this/ is an acceptable process to patent. I'm sure that's obvious, but HN does spend a lot of time denouncing software patents (rightly so). EDIT: Not really sure why I got down-voted; nevertheless, I do think it's important to point out cases where patents can be applied as originally intended.

Downvoted because there is no reason to start a patents discussion in a materials science article.

I agree with your sentiment generally, but the HN community is overwhelmingly against software and business process patents. Therefore, as a matter of balance, when an article appears where patent law might be applied as originally intended I believe that it's responsible to highlight examples of the good use of patents.

Frankly, I think that it's incredibly interesting some people don't think that this new method of producing steel is worthy of patent protection, and is a valuable discussion to have. The reasons for being against software patents usually revolve around software being reducible to math, but here that argument is not applicable.

Given that I want to know more about their reasoning, are you suggesting that in order to have this discussion I need to go to the trouble of writing a blog about this article as it relates to HN's community sentiment, submit it to HN's news feed, and cross my fingers that it makes it to the front page where the people who responded to this article might see it and contribute? That seems unnecessary and overly burdensome.

Re: Detroit DIYer cooks up stronger, lighter steel, shames scientists

#45

Post by noonespecial »

hugh3 wrote: post #41
noonespecial wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that as it stands now, someone like Intellectual Ventures will have a patent like "cooling metal with water", and either force him to sell for a few hundred bucks or just interfere with anyone else who actually tries to do this. It'll be 20 years before anyone figures out a way through all of the legal mess and starts production. Even then, it will cost more, not less thanks to this.

Well no, because nobody does or legally could possibly have a patent on cooling metal with water. So I'm not sure what your point is. It strikes me that many of the folks who most stridently object to patent law don't actually know much about it.

It's an example. And hyperboly at that. But you'd be surprised (at least I am) at the patents that are granted that really shouldn't be, but once they are have nearly magical powers given to them by existing laws to resist being overturned. The point was that it's possible to have an extremely stupid patent that really shouldn't have been legal or possible get granted anyway and cause big problems to small guys like this. He's got a great idea but not much money or clout. The patent system will almost certainly do him more harm than good.

It strikes me that many of the folks who defend patent law as it stands now most stridently are largely oblivious to the innovation that is being stifled by it's operation.

Re: Detroit DIYer cooks up stronger, lighter steel, shames scientists

#46

Post by ars »

srean wrote: post #25

In spite of our understanding of chemistry, metallurgy still has quite a few mysteries in store for us. Some of them go back thousands of years. For instance we still have not been able to come up with a convincing reproduction of Damascus steel, the prized material that middle eastern swords were built of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel . Another supposedly related and "lost" steel is wootz steel. http:/…

The interesting thing about steel is that the tiny grains that make it up are immensely strong, far stronger than any other material we have.

But we have no known method of making steel out of just those grains, it's always mixed with other weaker parts.

That's why spider silk is so incredibly strong - it's manufactured (essentially) one atom at a time.

If we could manufacture steel in the same way it would be far stronger than spider silk.

Here's a list of some of the various grains in steel:

Pearlite, Cementite, Bainite, Austenite (there are many more).

The steel making process is all about encouraging a specific type (and especially, mixture) of these grains to form. But we can do so only at low efficiency and in a random fashion.

Re: Detroit DIYer cooks up stronger, lighter steel, shames scientists

#47

Post by cincinnatus »

hugh3 wrote: post #39
eru wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And actually, if hacking with computers wasn't so common, it would be perceived as quite awesome, too.

I'm sure you'd like to think so, but unless you have a blast furnace in your garage you're not as cool as this guy, sorry.

How about a CNC mill, laser cutter or reprap? :-)

Re: Detroit DIYer cooks up stronger, lighter steel, shames scientists

#48

Post by politician »

noonespecial wrote: post #45
hugh3 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well no, because nobody does or legally could possibly have a patent on cooling metal with water. So I'm not sure what your point is. It strikes me that many of the folks who most stridently object to patent law don't actually know much about it.

It's an example. And hyperboly at that. But you'd be surprised (at least I am) at the patents that are granted that really shouldn't be, but once they are have nearly magical powers given to them by existing laws to resist being overturned. The point was that it's possible to have an extremely stupid patent that really shouldn't have been legal or possible get granted anyway and cause big problems to small guys like…

It's worthwhile to point out that he's producing this steel through his own venture where the process "is run at his proprietary lab setup at SFP Works, LLC., in Detroit."

Perhaps you and he share the same view of the value of patent protection. Certainly, I'd be concerned about the appropriation of this technology by foreign countries with less respect for US intellectual property protections.

(http://www.gizmag.com/stronger-steel-in-a-flash/18882/)

Re: Detroit DIYer cooks up stronger, lighter steel, shames scientists

#49

Post by joshwa »

gaustin wrote: post #32
guelo wrote: post #3

Wow amateur metallurgist sounds like a hardcore hobby.

I'm an amateur bladesmith. This guy posts regularly on one of the forums I participate in. He's chronicled his research there in very accessible, but rich detail. Really brilliant stuff (from my layman perspective).

link?

Re: Detroit DIYer cooks up stronger, lighter steel, shames scientists

#50

Post by D_Alex »

I might have to disappoint you all...

An Australian company, BHP (my employer at the time), was working on this method of steel production in the early 1990's. They had big hopes and put a lot of R&D investment in it, but were unable to commercialize it as the sheets of metal produced did not have consistent ductility and were prone to cracking.

So - the idea is not new, and the challenges of going from a concept to commercialization are serious, and were beyond the capabilities of one of the world's largest steel producers. The Bainsteel website indicates that they are still in the R&D phase. Best of luck to them, hope it works, but it is vaporware until it is on sale.

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