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Overview of Early Electric Cars

lowtechmagazine.com

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Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#41

Post by fy20 »

TylerE wrote: post #22
mettamage wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silly question: to what extent can you extend the range of a car by adding solar panels on the roof in cloudy conditions? If that adds range of 10% extra, then why not do it? I figured they thought about this a long time ago, so I'm just wondering.

Not nearly enough. Solar panels, under absolutely perfect conditions (perfect angling, no clouds, etc) produce about 15w per square foot. Even if you covered every bit of the upward facing surfaces, including the hood, with panels, that's going to peak at about 1kw of input - and since you'll be off axis all the time it'll be less than that. A Tesla battery pack is 100kw/h. So under perfect conditions you'd need 100…

The Prius Gen 3 had an option for a 'solar roof', but it's pretty much just a gimmick. The whole roof is 40W. All the panels do is power a fan to bring exterior air into the cabin, to keep it cooler during hot weather.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#42

Post by _ph_ »

clouddrover wrote: post #5
Robotbeat wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they are. Most new electric cars are like at least 250 mile range, and Tesla's flagship Model S starts out at over 400 mile range (and their 520 mile range version will be available in about 12 months... that's more than most conventionally fueled cars). Charge speed is fine (you'll spend less time overall than you spend at gas stations) and safety is overall superior. Battery life is also not a concern as th…

No, you need to think about what it means when all cars are electric. Current charging speeds lead to long queues at chargers like this: https://www.thedrive.com/news/31274/more-teslas-on-the-road-... No car on the road at the moment is capable of making full use of 350 kW CCS chargers (the Porsche Taycan comes closest at 270 kW). Ideally you'd want a flat charging curve at 350 kW to allow for more cars to be served…

It is less about charging speed but rather charger availability vs. demand. Of course, it is easer to provide high availability if the charging/refueling ist relatively fast, but at any given speed you can compute the number of charge/refueling points needed to prevent waiting times beyond a given limit. There can be hour-long queues at fuel stations too, just there are enough fuel stations that this is a very rare thing, but just look at the people queuing up at fuel stations when a hurricane approaches.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#43

Post by clouddrover »

FullyFunctional wrote: post #33
clouddrover wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't really want long range and fast charge Yes we do. As the article demonstrates, they were making the same arguments 100 years ago. Lack of range and charging speed is why electric cars lost out to ICE cars 100 years ago. ICE cars simply took you further, faster (and still do).

more than 412 mi, faster than a Model S? This argument is completely ridiculous. Electric is already far superior for every day driving and close to parity for long distance (super charger is fast, but not yet quiet as fast as pumping gas - but if you have kids you'll welcome the break)

> more than 412 mi

No, 400 miles is about right as an average range as long as your charging is fast. ICE cars achieve that easily. The Toyota Prius has 640 miles of range.

> faster than a Model S

Yes.

> close to parity for long distance

It isn't. There's no point pretending the situation is other than it is. You can do long distance driving in an EV but you are going to spend more time charging than you would spend fueling. That's just a practical reality.

The Porsche Taycan is the fastest road tripping EV at the moment. It's helped by its fast charging capability:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFsjMvCFlig

It's an expensive sports car and on price alone it will never be a mass market vehicle. EVs still need to charge faster than the Taycan.

> super charger is fast, but not yet quiet as fast as pumping gas

It's nowhere near as fast as pumping gas.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#44

Post by clouddrover »

FullyFunctional wrote: post #31
lurkmurk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But all of those are still true. I would argue that public transport should replace cars for commute which is most of the "non-niche" usage. Public transport can't get you anywhere, on your own terms? Sounds familiar.

They are not simultaneously true. The new Model S Long Range has 412 mi range. All of them can tow, but they are all fairly expensive. The cheapest Model 3 isn't cheap, but definitely getting there.

> The cheapest Model 3 isn't cheap, but definitely getting there.

Prices are heading in the wrong direction at the moment:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-s-model-3-mod...

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#45

Post by tonyedgecombe »

lurkmurk wrote: post #36
FullyFunctional wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not simultaneously true. The new Model S Long Range has 412 mi range. All of them can tow, but they are all fairly expensive. The cheapest Model 3 isn't cheap, but definitely getting there.

It's better but not great. Not everyone can afford tesla. Western goverments and big companies are to blame for lack of incentives and infrastructure. People buy what makes the most sense, and petrol is better for many people. This can be changed. I think that everyone would instantly switch to EV if it had the same properties but had a battery instead of a tank. They are faster, silent, cleaner, but it's up to leade…

I've assumed its just a problem of demand for batteries exceeding supply. If a manufacturer can only make a small number of cars because they are restricted by battery supply then they are going to mark up the price to maximise their profit. As more battery supply becomes available the prices should fall.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#46

Post by agumonkey »

dvh wrote: post #38
mattlondon wrote: post #25

It is interesting to see sentiment change over the years on hacker news. First EVs were too expensive. Then they were too slow/couldn't tow. Then the range was too small. Now people are griping that they can't "refuel" in 5 mins. I guess we will see what the next excuse becomes for people to continue polluting and why EVs "aren't ready" for their hypothetical/once-a-year/niche needs. Sigh.

Perfect EV (for me) was already made. Citroen Ami. $6000, 75km range.

You tried it yourself ? (just curious)

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#47

Post by cagenut »

The visuals in this are great. Its interesting to see how the materials and manufacturing complexity of what they could produce aren't far off what wealthy-hobbyest/niche-youtubers can do at home now. It'd be interesting to re-create one of these with modern parts.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#48

Post by agumonkey »

Someone wrote: post #30

Those cars were popular (especially with women) because you didn’t have to hand-crank them. Because of that it has been said that what made gasoline cars take over was the invention of the electric starter for gasoline cars.

"On the importance of user interface and ergonomics"

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#49

Post by amelius »

mattlondon wrote: post #25

It is interesting to see sentiment change over the years on hacker news. First EVs were too expensive. Then they were too slow/couldn't tow. Then the range was too small. Now people are griping that they can't "refuel" in 5 mins. I guess we will see what the next excuse becomes for people to continue polluting and why EVs "aren't ready" for their hypothetical/once-a-year/niche needs. Sigh.

Exhaust pipe should end in the cabin. Then people will stop their excuses.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#50

Post by literallycancer »

Robotbeat wrote: post #3
clouddrover wrote: post #2

The problem is the same as its always been: the batteries still aren't quite good enough. Batteries still need to become cheaper, safer, more energy dense, more durable, and faster charging. But the good news is that batteries are improving year by year. Probably by 2025 there will be large scale production of EVs with solid-state batteries with better energy density, safety, and charging speeds. It'll also be good t…

I think they are. Most new electric cars are like at least 250 mile range, and Tesla's flagship Model S starts out at over 400 mile range (and their 520 mile range version will be available in about 12 months... that's more than most conventionally fueled cars). Charge speed is fine (you'll spend less time overall than you spend at gas stations) and safety is overall superior. Battery life is also not a concern as th…

Let's see. A 2011 diesel sedan can go about 900km before refueling. There's maybe 2 charging stations within 50 km of my central European location. So, the best experience I can have with an electric car right now is to spend a 100k on a car that doesn't work unless I live next to the charging station, or takes a day to charge. Oh and the car that I already have is not designed by Californians, so there's no stupid shit like a trunk full of snow every time you open it.

I think I'll still go with the autism causing, dinosaur burning dumpster fire on wheels for now.

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