New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable • Hacker News Board

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#41

Post by TwoBit » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 8:27 PM UTC

rorykoehler wrote: post #33

leoh wrote: post #9

Great chain, but the Gates Carbon Drive is likely a superior technology. Europe has largely adopted it, but it is rare in the states. I have a Riese & Müller bike with a Gates Carbon Drive and it is absolutely lovely. Silent, but best of all, no grease on my pants or hands, ever. They handle dirt and dust super well (just dry off and wipe down with a cloth/no gears get jammed with a sealed planetary gear system). It…

What about potential of the ceramicspeed driven design? https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/driven/

I cannot believe that thing is viable.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#42

Post by usrusr » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 8:28 PM UTC

usrusr wrote: post #11

I really don't get it: what power are they claiming to be transferring on the side of the tooth that isn't engaging with a roller chain? Also note that this is only for track bikes with a perfectly straight chainline (technically speaking it would also work for internal gear hubs wish are increasingly driven by belts in the upper price range). The shifting chain that is deployed diagonally more often than straight is…

Just had an idea [1] about how this "gripper chain" could maybe outdo a roller chain in efficiency:

Maybe the "gripper plates" align themselves perfectly with the tooth at a time when the connection is still not under load yet? A conventional roller won't need much aligning, but it won't do that, it won't settle into place before load is applied. Friction scales with force. If that's how they teased out a minor delta then it's truly very clever (but likely still highly impractical outside the laboratory/indoor track setting)

[1] idea came while taking a shower, were else. Shower after churning that old Campag 12s chain a little, unfortunately only on Zwift these days

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#43

Post by TwoBit » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 8:30 PM UTC

at-fates-hands wrote: post #40

Side note: I used to work in a bike shop for about ten years. One time had a guy come in who worked with Kyronics. We all made jokes about freezing dead people - but he said you can apply Kryonics to a wide array of stuff not just dead people. One of the many things some of the team riders were seriously considering was having their cranks, chains and frames frozen since its supposed to alter the molecular structure…

If that technique made any bike part better, Shimano, Campagnolo, and SRAM or whoever was around at the time would have been doing it.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#44

Post by davidw » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 8:30 PM UTC

mdoms wrote: post #36

ska wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they are claiming any power is transferred by the other side, just that it forces a more uniform fit and distributed the power transfer over more teeth.

They very much are making that claim. > The future apparently isn’t far away, as New Motion Labs has developed a new Dual Engagement chain that is supposedly able to transfer high power on both sides of the tooth, over nearly all the teeth available to the chain.

> According to New Motion Labs, because the chain engages on both sides of the tooth, it is effectively locked in position, theoretically spreading the power distribution over many teeth, increasing efficiency, and reducing wear.

Yeah, I'm also wondering about how much energy it takes to "lock it in place", and then, of course, unlock it.

I've been a cyclist for 30 years now, and there's always been a steady stream of 'amazing! revolutionary!' things like this, but mostly it's incremental improvements. If it pans out, great, if not, c'est la vie.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#45

Post by Sunspark » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 8:31 PM UTC

Finnucane wrote: post #18

leoh wrote: post #9

Great chain, but the Gates Carbon Drive is likely a superior technology. Europe has largely adopted it, but it is rare in the states. I have a Riese & Müller bike with a Gates Carbon Drive and it is absolutely lovely. Silent, but best of all, no grease on my pants or hands, ever. They handle dirt and dust super well (just dry off and wipe down with a cloth/no gears get jammed with a sealed planetary gear system). It…

The advantage here is that the chain could be made backwards-compatible with existing conventional drivetrains. The Gates drive can't be retrofitted onto older frames.

Why can't it be? My bike is a fixed gear track frame. If the threads of the sprockets are compatible with the rear wheel, then it should be able to fit.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#46

Post by usrusr » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 8:33 PM UTC

mdoms wrote: post #36

ska wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they are claiming any power is transferred by the other side, just that it forces a more uniform fit and distributed the power transfer over more teeth.

They very much are making that claim. > The future apparently isn’t far away, as New Motion Labs has developed a new Dual Engagement chain that is supposedly able to transfer high power on both sides of the tooth, over nearly all the teeth available to the chain.

See my other post theorizing about how it might actually be advantageous despite looking crazy. Perhaps a case of marketing guy who doesn't really understand what he's selling effectively outranking the engineer?

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#47

Post by wishinghand » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 8:33 PM UTC

buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #37

carlob wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given a conventional chain can be up to 98% efficient then the maximum increase in efficiency is 1/.98 - 1 = 2.04%

Is 100% efficiency physically possible? Or are they just trying to get as close as they can, knowing they can never truly reach 100%?

As long as there is friction, no.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#48

Post by owenversteeg » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 8:33 PM UTC

leoh wrote: post #9

Great chain, but the Gates Carbon Drive is likely a superior technology. Europe has largely adopted it, but it is rare in the states. I have a Riese & Müller bike with a Gates Carbon Drive and it is absolutely lovely. Silent, but best of all, no grease on my pants or hands, ever. They handle dirt and dust super well (just dry off and wipe down with a cloth/no gears get jammed with a sealed planetary gear system). It…

I live in the Netherlands and have traveled Europe very extensively and I have never seen one single belt driven bike... I have a feeling that it'll be a long time before Europe widely adopts them :)

Does look very cool, though.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#49

Post by robotresearcher » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 8:34 PM UTC

buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #37

carlob wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given a conventional chain can be up to 98% efficient then the maximum increase in efficiency is 1/.98 - 1 = 2.04%

Is 100% efficiency physically possible? Or are they just trying to get as close as they can, knowing they can never truly reach 100%?

Never 100%. Friction anywhere will prevent perfect efficiency. Also any compression, flexing or twisting of the components, which can be very, very small for hard steel at these low forces but not quite zero.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#50

Post by danburbridge » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 8:34 PM UTC

leoh wrote: post #9

Great chain, but the Gates Carbon Drive is likely a superior technology. Europe has largely adopted it, but it is rare in the states. I have a Riese & Müller bike with a Gates Carbon Drive and it is absolutely lovely. Silent, but best of all, no grease on my pants or hands, ever. They handle dirt and dust super well (just dry off and wipe down with a cloth/no gears get jammed with a sealed planetary gear system). It…

Gates only quote between 95-98% efficiency. You can relatively easily get to 98% with conventional chains using wax and oversizing chainrings and sprockets and you don't need to worry about splitting your frame to replace them...

This is a very niche product but sounds like an interesting approach. The users of it likely won't care if it needs replacing every ride if it means saving watts and winning (olympic) races.