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Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

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Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#41
post #20

I don’t want to re-invent the desktop. As a software engineer, I’m annoyed that I can’t do my entire job on my phone. I’d like to see dramatically better portable input interfaces. I’d even be happy if more love was paid to “desktop light” environments. I have an iPad Pro that’s useless for software development without SSHing into a machine.

As in, you can't do your job on a tiny screen, or you can't do all your work using a touch interface? I would hate to have to use a touch interface to write code.

I used to play this app when I was bored: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hackedapp

It had a cool keyboard that would only show words that are syntactically valid for the cursor position.

It probably would need some alterations for a real language, but it's a lot better than just a qwerty keyboard

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As in, you can't do your job on a tiny screen, or you can't do all your work using a touch interface? I would hate to have to use a touch interface to write code.

Maybe no one‘s created a good touch interface for writing code yet. I feel like there’s actually opportunity to completely reinvent coding from something keyboard-focused to something more touch-friendly. At the very least for line of business apps anyway. There’s been lots of work done on visual programming system but they all seem to be centered on teaching children basic coding concepts, not actually getting stuff…

There was Visual Basic and FileMaker. That said I think non-trivial problems require a dense UI. And visual density can be daunting. Text and language are a hack but their the least bad I've seen so far.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#43
We are building a Linux platform for this in VR/AR: https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula

The goal is to get things working suitably well for vanilla 2D apps on standalone headsets, and then start building the actual 3D OS apps geared towards office work/tools for thought (things like: 3D programming code graphs, 3D spreadsheets, and other things that VR uniquely can facilitate).

Sample video of what it looks like right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm72Qmi8Bik

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#44
post #4

If you can show me the invested COW cost of electron is low enough I can live in electron apps. If Microsoft re-works W10+ to be a thin shim over the kernel and Office works on Linux clean-port, not webapp, I'll be fine too. Mostly what people want is the plan9 plumber: the ability to point and select things, and have s/w contextually work out how to DTRT with it. This is ORM. Corba. whatever. Patents suck. If you de…

If you depend on copying other people's innovative methods, is that not also evil?

We all rely everyday on ancient and modern innovations copied from others; from farming to DDR3. It's just that now patents can lock up that innovation for decades in a system so dense you need a small army to look for possible infringement before you take even a step. Or just hope that forgiveness is cheaper than asking permission.

Of course without any patents many things might be lost, never invented, or kept secret for ages.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe no one‘s created a good touch interface for writing code yet. I feel like there’s actually opportunity to completely reinvent coding from something keyboard-focused to something more touch-friendly. At the very least for line of business apps anyway. There’s been lots of work done on visual programming system but they all seem to be centered on teaching children basic coding concepts, not actually getting stuff…

There was Visual Basic and FileMaker. That said I think non-trivial problems require a dense UI. And visual density can be daunting. Text and language are a hack but their the least bad I've seen so far.

Visual Basic got partway there by having WYSIWYG user interface editing, but you still had to code all of business logic using the visual basic programming language.

What I’m talking about is replacing the latter with something that is not just essentially a text string. Maybe one way to think about it is when you are coding in visual studio with a language that has good IntelliSense, it will pop up with various class members and other details because it understands the objects you are working with. Maybe there’s a way to extend that idea, where there’s not much manual typing involved at all and it’s mostly tapping on the option you want based on what is relevant in the current scope.

Microsoft had a labs project 5 or 10 years ago attempting to do just this, although it never really got very far before it was canceled. I wish I could remember the name of it now, it was intriguing. Definitely not as productive as coding via a keyboard on a real computer, but it was the best experience you could get on a mobile device, so that’s not nothing.

Maybe the real problem is there’s no way to actually run/use anything you create on mobile. Sure maybe if you’re making a website, but there’s no way to build an app or a helper function that can be used directly on an iPhone or iPad. I assume android has more possibilities here, but I still have yet to see something that will compile code on an android device directly to an APK and install it locally without requiring some sort of server to do the heavy lifting.

It’s interesting to see the communities growing around iOS shortcuts. It’s crazy the amount of hoops people are willing to jump through to create shortcuts that would otherwise be fairly simple scripts in a standard programming language, and then people share them on Reddit communities and elsewhere. If people are willing to bend over backwards for that, just think what a purpose-built system could be used for.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#47
post #3

Everything for my PC is one of: 1) Web based (something lightweight like ChromeOS can do it) 2) Command line (easy to ssh into a remote box) 3) IDE (heavy) I only need a light weight terminal for 1&2 but 3 keeps tripping me up. Would be great if IntelliJ ran with remote back end.

You'd basically need a server in your home to avoid massive latency issues. Even then it's not easy to get native-feeling feedback across the board.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#48
post #8

I want old pre-AppStore OSX/macOS that doesn’t nanny my installs or screw old drivers, with a good package manager, and easily tabbed and gridded terminal windows without tmux necessarily. I’d also like GPL’d Windows XP running flawlessly like a mac. I’d use Linux on the desktop, but I’ve never liked any of the desktop managers and it was never as reliable as OSX/macOS.

You've tried every desktop manager for Linux and spent enough time with them to be sure you didn't like them? Very impressive. Not sure what your reliability metrics are, but I've run Linux and macOS desktops side by side for years now (decades, even), and I don't really detect much of a difference. The macOS ones do tend to have the benefit of a rigid hardware platform, which is why I suppose they do a bit less well…

Rather than give me negative points, how about you folks doing that trying to actually respond?

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#49

Haiku is the only relevant answer. www.haiku-os.org It would be great if more people helped the project out, it is far more promising than Linux for a desktop OS.

Ironically, at least half of the things that make Haiku awesome are buried deep inside its kernel rather than being anything directly to do with the desktop.

Also, the contrast between Haiku and Linux in my mind just points to the more fundamental difference between a design that says "you will do things this way, because this is better" (Haiku) and one that says "we'll give you a dozen ways to approach every problem because we're not into dictating optimum solutions, which may change over time anyway" (Linux). It's not that Linux can't replicate almost everything that Haiku gets right, it's more that it provides everything necessary to do 12 related things, on the same desktop.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what in god's name are you talking about? Photo management? Image editing? Video editing? DAWs? Games? The browser itself? Compilers... static analysis tools ... a myriad of other native developer tools ? I could go on, but what on earth is the "everything" that no longer matters? If you had said "everyone's gone to mobile", well, that's a claim. But "everyone's gone to saas and browsers" ... that's not even wrong.

Imagine a computer without internet. It's way less useful. Everything that matters is online now. Pottering wants to get rid of /home on Linux for example. You can even do all that stuff online by SSHing a much better computer.

"Everything that matters is online now"

You clearly do not use "creative" software. While you might draw from the internet to do video/audio work, ultimately the stuff happens in front of you, burning cycles on a machine directly connected to your keyboard (or, potentially, accessing some compute-server farm that is 1 IP hop away).

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