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Mayflower 400: the science of sailing across the ocean in 1620

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Re: Mayflower 400: the science of sailing across the ocean in 1620

#41

Post by throwaway0a5e »

stephenhuey wrote: post #38
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #31

I've been reading a lot about the 1600-1700 period recently and it always amazes me how quickly these people went from "our first goal is to not starve and our second goal live as good Christians" to "let's attack anyone and anything that doesn't share our view of what good a good Christian is" On one hand humanity doesn't change much so it's not that surprising but 400yr later you can still see the scars the backwar…

I just read a recent biography of Dr. Benjamin Rush and it’s clear that even before the American revolution there were some strongly opposing views of how to treat native Americans and whether or not it was morally defensible to enslave Africans. So some who called themselves Christians would accept these practices and many others, like Rush, loudly opposed them (just like the disagreements that happen within groups…

It's amazing how many parallels there are between the issues of 1620-1760 and the issues of the modern day (like 2020 modern, not just the current century). The issues have changed but humanity hasn't.

The thing that really hit home for me was the rhetoric they sued to go after Morton, Williams and the other RI guy who had no issue with the natives (the name escapes me). It's like a straight copypasta from today.

Re: Mayflower 400: the science of sailing across the ocean in 1620

#42

Post by pvg »

mbroncano wrote: post #34

I found out today that the first university (!) in the continent dates back to the 1550s [0]. What made the Spaniards so successful that they were able not only to defeat a full blown civilization (as opposed to the weaker natives in the north) and were able to fully bootstrap their territories where the English took many attempts and failures? Was it the technology? Or just the nature of the northern territories? [1…

This is a gross oversimplification but the purpose and goals of their expeditions were just completely different. Even the earliest Spanish expeditions were (in part) state-approved, armed and essentially get-rich-quick plundering schemes. The existence of advanced (but less well armed) urban civilizations just encouraged them since it meant potential for gold.

A lot of now-famous early British colonizers were basically groups of funky religious malcontents hoping to establish their own little theocracies. Their state approval was more along the lines of 'good riddance'.

Re: Mayflower 400: the science of sailing across the ocean in 1620

#43

Post by drocer88 »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #35
mbroncano wrote: post #34

I found out today that the first university (!) in the continent dates back to the 1550s [0]. What made the Spaniards so successful that they were able not only to defeat a full blown civilization (as opposed to the weaker natives in the north) and were able to fully bootstrap their territories where the English took many attempts and failures? Was it the technology? Or just the nature of the northern territories? [1…

>Was it the technology? Or just the nature of the northern territories? The English were the poors of Europe at the time. They couldn't afford well funded settlement expeditions. Jamestown barely survived. The Pilgrims were basically shown the door and had no better options. Then everyone on the wrong side of the English civil war came over shortly thereafter.

English were not the poors of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(P...

Re: Mayflower 400: the science of sailing across the ocean in 1620

#44

Post by mauvehaus »

jvanderbot wrote: post #25

I'm amazed they were only off by 63 miles, given the article claims dead reckoning was so inaccurate. I'm even more amazed they knew where they were relative to their destination after 66 days of dead reckoning.

Crucially, that's 63 miles North of Virginia. Latitude is relatively straightforward to measure. It's pretty well given that if you sail west from Northern Europe, you'll hit North America. Hitting it at your intended latitude might depend on the winds, but one you bump into it, it should be pretty easy for a competent navigator to tell you how far off your target you were in latitude. Given decent maps, figuring out longitude is probably not a tall order either if you know your latitude and you're on the coast.

Re: Mayflower 400: the science of sailing across the ocean in 1620

#45

Post by mbroncano »

pvg wrote: post #42
mbroncano wrote: post #34

I found out today that the first university (!) in the continent dates back to the 1550s [0]. What made the Spaniards so successful that they were able not only to defeat a full blown civilization (as opposed to the weaker natives in the north) and were able to fully bootstrap their territories where the English took many attempts and failures? Was it the technology? Or just the nature of the northern territories? [1…

This is a gross oversimplification but the purpose and goals of their expeditions were just completely different. Even the earliest Spanish expeditions were (in part) state-approved, armed and essentially get-rich-quick plundering schemes. The existence of advanced (but less well armed) urban civilizations just encouraged them since it meant potential for gold. A lot of now-famous early British colonizers were basica…

> Even the earliest Spanish expeditions were (in part) state-approved, armed and essentially get-rich-quick plundering schemes.

Maybe I’m not getting your point, but how does that fit with building up universities? What were they expecting to get out of them? Student debt?

Re: Mayflower 400: the science of sailing across the ocean in 1620

#46

Post by KineticLensman »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #41
stephenhuey wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just read a recent biography of Dr. Benjamin Rush and it’s clear that even before the American revolution there were some strongly opposing views of how to treat native Americans and whether or not it was morally defensible to enslave Africans. So some who called themselves Christians would accept these practices and many others, like Rush, loudly opposed them (just like the disagreements that happen within groups…

It's amazing how many parallels there are between the issues of 1620-1760 and the issues of the modern day (like 2020 modern, not just the current century). The issues have changed but humanity hasn't. The thing that really hit home for me was the rhetoric they sued to go after Morton, Williams and the other RI guy who had no issue with the natives (the name escapes me). It's like a straight copypasta from today.

The eternal themes that recur throughout history:

Master or slave

Have or have not

Home or exile

Re: Mayflower 400: the science of sailing across the ocean in 1620

#47

Post by pvg »

mbroncano wrote: post #45
pvg wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a gross oversimplification but the purpose and goals of their expeditions were just completely different. Even the earliest Spanish expeditions were (in part) state-approved, armed and essentially get-rich-quick plundering schemes. The existence of advanced (but less well armed) urban civilizations just encouraged them since it meant potential for gold. A lot of now-famous early British colonizers were basica…

> Even the earliest Spanish expeditions were (in part) state-approved, armed and essentially get-rich-quick plundering schemes. Maybe I’m not getting your point, but how does that fit with building up universities? What were they expecting to get out of them? Student debt?

A 16th century university is primarily a religious institution and Spain had a strongly enforced state religion. Pizarro - one of the adventuring/plundering types - founded Lima in 1535, 20 years before the university and after taking out the core of the Inca empire.

To go back to your original question - I don't think this had much to do with technology but just with the different approaches the empires in question took. To Spain, a minor bet paid off spectacularly and the state fairly quickly moved to establish control (not without some trouble - just scrolling through the Wikipedia pages of Pizarro or Cortés is full of stories of Spanish leaders and officials in the New World murdering each other).

It was many decades after all of this, though, that England got around to considering, maybe, the American North Atlantic coast as a decent dumping ground for some irritating Jesus freaks.

Re: Mayflower 400: the science of sailing across the ocean in 1620

#48

Post by jvanderbot »

mauvehaus wrote: post #44
jvanderbot wrote: post #25

I'm amazed they were only off by 63 miles, given the article claims dead reckoning was so inaccurate. I'm even more amazed they knew where they were relative to their destination after 66 days of dead reckoning.

Crucially, that's 63 miles North of Virginia. Latitude is relatively straightforward to measure. It's pretty well given that if you sail west from Northern Europe, you'll hit North America. Hitting it at your intended latitude might depend on the winds, but one you bump into it, it should be pretty easy for a competent navigator to tell you how far off your target you were in latitude. Given decent maps, figuring out…

Ah great point! Since the east coast is mostly north-south, it was possible to check distance relative to the destination easily. Thanks!

Re: Mayflower 400: the science of sailing across the ocean in 1620

#49

Post by morsch »

drocer88 wrote: post #43
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Was it the technology? Or just the nature of the northern territories? The English were the poors of Europe at the time. They couldn't afford well funded settlement expeditions. Jamestown barely survived. The Pilgrims were basically shown the door and had no better options. Then everyone on the wrong side of the English civil war came over shortly thereafter.

English were not the poors of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(P...

That list starts after 1800, so 200 years after the events otherwise discussed in this thread. Though absent other evidence I'm inclined to believe you.

Re: Mayflower 400: the science of sailing across the ocean in 1620

#50

Post by ithkuil »

bitbckt wrote: post #21
bserge wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always been amazed by this ability to track your ancestors hundreds of years back. Were the records that good back then? I had lots of trouble getting birth records for my great-grandparents. The system in my country was terrible, if I didn't have the exact name and date of birth, they couldn't find anything. Nothing was digitized, maybe that changed but I doubt it. In fact, I did have the wrong day but fortunat…

My family is descended from Rev. John Lothrop[0], who came across on the Griffin in 1634. The high literacy rate among Puritans and their subsequent notability through the colonial years left many, many records of them and their progeny. He is also an ancestor of the Bush clan - among many others. At some point, everyone is related to everyone. :) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lothropp

> At some point, everyone is related to everyone. :)

Good video from numberphile: https://youtu.be/Fm0hOex4psA

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