How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#41

Post by srean » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 3:47 PM UTC

puranjay wrote: post #40

srean wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point is very well taken. Empire making and keeping is inherently violent, but the current trend seems to be trying to make the case that Hindu emperors achieved what they achieved with peace, rainbows and divine fairness (and some old Hindu science of flying machines, plastic surgery between humans and elephant heads. All lost because of outside invasion). Pushing this point of view has been the national agenda…

If nothing else, it's a gross oversimplification of history - a basic "us vs them" narration. When in reality, alliances were driven more by political necessity than by religion. There were Hindu generals in Mughal armies, just as there were Muslim commanders in the Maratha armies. If you trace the Mughal family tree, you'll also find that someone like Shah Jahan was 75% Indian by blood (Hindu Rajput grandmom, Hindu…

Agreed. Even the notion that the British took India from the Mughals is quite a laughable notion. Mughals were a shadow of themselves at that time. India was taken from the Marathas, not the Mughals.

An aside, are you aware of significant artifacts (more than hill top forts) institutions that the Marathas left behind. I would be quite interested in knowing about them. With the subject matter so politically charged it is hard to have levelheaded conversations on it.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#42

Post by srean » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 3:53 PM UTC

boogies wrote: post #37

shadowfox wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wikipedia isn't a reliable source anymore. They seems to have become a Islamist and left propaganda machine I do think that needs some stronger sourcing. It is one thing to argue that certain wiki articles have some bias or the other, but a categorical claim that it is an Islamist and left propaganda machine seems rather bizarre at first cut. At the moment these claims seem to be supported by some random tweets?

> > Wikipedia isn't a reliable source anymore. They seems to have become a Islamist and left propaganda machine > I do think that needs some stronger sourcing. Academic study, showing leftist bias: https://hbr.org/2014/12/wikipedia-is-more-biased-than-britan... > Greenstein and Zhu borrowed this taxonomy of partisan terms and counted their use in pairs of Wikipedia and Britannica articles on the same subject. They ca…

> Academic study, showing leftist bias

says rightwing mouthpieces.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#43

Post by legolas2412 » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 3:55 PM UTC

srean wrote: post #29

drieddust wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edits: - Replacing links with original source material. I included tweets because I would like to attribute the credit to people who I learned from. - Removing line about Wikipedia's Left and Islam leanings. I will present more details argument later on. Wikipedia isn't a reliable source when it comes to history. Even for his time he wasn't tolerant. Let me narrate 2 stories from the same period. When Akbar took over…

Given Kieferski's qualification "tolerant the times" I dont see that he is egregiously wrong. Emperor Ashoka who is considered kindness personified had Kalinga butchered among other places -- till his empire was big enough that more campaigns and conquests were unnecessary. At that point he turned the peaceful Buddhist.

Uhh, ashoka wasn't called kind and peaceful for his kalinga conquest, but how he transformed afterwards.

Unless you also think of nelson mandela as a terrorist?

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#44

Post by drieddust » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 3:55 PM UTC

srean wrote: post #32

drieddust wrote: post #15

Mughals were neither about art nor science nor they were tolerant. Post partition and independence India had 5 education ministers who were hardcore Islamist and sympathizer of Pakistan. They have created this aura around Mughal tolerance.

> Post partition and independence India had 5 education ministers who were hardcore Islamist and sympathizer of Pakistan. That sounds like a political opinion that has an axe to grind.

Yes it is political because they were political. It is because of them India's history education starts and ends with Mughals. Even Mughal's contampories like Marathas, Sikhs, Vijay Nagar, Ahoms kingdoms etc don't find any place in the history books?

Do you think these omissions from Indians History books are happen-stances:

- Dutch came to India before English but they were crushed by Vijay Nagar Empire.[1]

- Ahoms ruled the North-East part of India for 600 years and Mughals never succeed in defeating them. [2]

- Marathas were ruling the India when British invaded yet history books show Mughals as last rulers of India.[3]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marthanda_Varma#Battle_of_Cola...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahom_kingdom

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha_Empire

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#45

Post by drieddust » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 3:57 PM UTC

shadowfox wrote: post #22

drieddust wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edits: - Replacing links with original source material. I included tweets because I would like to attribute the credit to people who I learned from. - Removing line about Wikipedia's Left and Islam leanings. I will present more details argument later on. Wikipedia isn't a reliable source when it comes to history. Even for his time he wasn't tolerant. Let me narrate 2 stories from the same period. When Akbar took over…

> Wikipedia isn't a reliable source anymore. They seems to have become a Islamist and left propaganda machine I do think that needs some stronger sourcing. It is one thing to argue that certain wiki articles have some bias or the other, but a categorical claim that it is an Islamist and left propaganda machine seems rather bizarre at first cut. At the moment these claims seem to be supported by some random tweets?

I have updated my comment to include the original sources. I included the tweets because I first I learned from them.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#46

Post by srean » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 4:04 PM UTC

drieddust wrote: post #44

srean wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Post partition and independence India had 5 education ministers who were hardcore Islamist and sympathizer of Pakistan. That sounds like a political opinion that has an axe to grind.

Yes it is political because they were political. It is because of them India's history education starts and ends with Mughals. Even Mughal's contampories like Marathas, Sikhs, Vijay Nagar, Ahoms kingdoms etc don't find any place in the history books? Do you think these omissions from Indians History books are happen-stances: - Dutch came to India before English but they were crushed by Vijay Nagar Empire.[1] - Ahoms…

Your [1] through [3] are absolutely true. Dont forget the Chutiyas. Of the three, [1] and [3] were covered well in our history class in standards 7 then again in 9 and 10. Palas of Bengal got a mention, again for obvious reasons. Theirs was perhaps the largest empire in India by area (significantly larger than say the area of Gupta empire at its peak, perhaps Maurya's too, not very sure of that). We had a pretty good History faculty in our high school in Kolkata and good history books. These were all in the curriculum, not side notes mentioned by the teachers. So all this conspiracy that you talk about, I dont buy that.

Kolkata even has remnants of a ditch (now filled up and made into roads) that was dug to protect Bengal from the Marthas. In Bengali, the Maratha raiders and sackers were called Borgis and were bit of a terror. Borgis feature often in Bengali folk songs. The British helped fund much of the ditch digging, for obvious reasons.

But this is a far cry from modern India being a victim of hardcore Islamists. That's quite ridiculous. Sorry to call that rightwing wishful thinking and propaganda out.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#47

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 4:10 PM UTC

srean wrote: post #36

puranjay wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nations are usually built on lies. Most countries would likely fall apart if they were completely truthful about their histories. In India's case, the whitewashing of Mughal rule was a necessity because there are still a substantial number of Muslims living in India, and painting their ancestors - the Mughals - as barbaric invaders would likely lead to violence (especially when seen in the context of the Partition vi…

Your point is very well taken. Empire making and keeping is inherently violent, but the current trend seems to be trying to make the case that Hindu emperors achieved what they achieved with peace, rainbows and divine fairness (and some old Hindu science of flying machines, plastic surgery between humans and elephant heads. All lost because of outside invasion). Pushing this point of view has been the national agenda…

[deleted]

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#48

Post by boogies » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 4:16 PM UTC

srean wrote: post #42

boogies wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Wikipedia isn't a reliable source anymore. They seems to have become a Islamist and left propaganda machine > I do think that needs some stronger sourcing. Academic study, showing leftist bias: https://hbr.org/2014/12/wikipedia-is-more-biased-than-britan... > Greenstein and Zhu borrowed this taxonomy of partisan terms and counted their use in pairs of Wikipedia and Britannica articles on the same subject. They ca…

> Academic study, showing leftist bias says rightwing mouthpieces.

When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#49

Post by drieddust » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

srean wrote: post #29

drieddust wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edits: - Replacing links with original source material. I included tweets because I would like to attribute the credit to people who I learned from. - Removing line about Wikipedia's Left and Islam leanings. I will present more details argument later on. Wikipedia isn't a reliable source when it comes to history. Even for his time he wasn't tolerant. Let me narrate 2 stories from the same period. When Akbar took over…

Given Kieferski's qualification "tolerant the times" I dont see that he is egregiously wrong. Emperor Ashoka who is considered kindness personified had Kalinga butchered among other places -- till his empire was big enough that more campaigns and conquests were unnecessary. At that point he turned the peaceful Buddhist.

Ashoka never turned pacifist. He got converted in 4th year of his reign and Kalinga war was waged in his 8th year. He waged wars and prosecuted Jains and Ajivikas. Sources are Buddhist text Mahavamsa and Divyavadana so should be considered accurate.

Before Islamic invasion started, Hindu India had a rich history of religious tolerance with Ashoka as an exception yet he finds place in our history books and other great kings don't. Some example of tolerance from an era when killing people for their faith was normal in rest of the world.

When Zoroastrians were prosecuted in Persia by Islam, they found refuge in India. Today's India's biggest conglomerate TATA Group is run by a Zoroastrianian family.[1]

When a ship full of prosecuted Polish Jews Children touched the shores of Gujarat after refused entry by many state as they feared Nazis. Maharaj Digvijaysinhji Ranjitsinhji Jadeja took them in. Some of those kids are still alive.[2]

[1] https://www.tata.com/

[2] https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-the-indian-oskar-schindler...

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#50

Post by indogooner » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #2

Akbar was one of the more interesting monarchs in human history. He was quite tolerant for the time, so much so that he created his own syncretic religion that aimed to soothe tensions among his subjects.[1] He also had an official biography written, the Akbarnama , [2] which is a pretty fascinating look behind the throne of Mughal India. It includes chapters on the imperial kitchen, coins used in the empire, army en…

He is hated by both Hindu and Muslim extremists. I take that as a complement. His tolerance should be judged in context. One should not judge him on the basis of his early reign, when he was under influence of Bairam Khan. Remember he was barely teen when he ascended the throne. He abolished religious taxes on Hindus, employed them in high positions and patronised other religions like Sikhism. A lot of critics pick his early reign. By that token even Ashoka should not be venerated.