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Success, and Farming vs. Mining

blog.wilshipley.com

41–48 of 48 posts

Re: Success, and Farming vs. Mining

#41
Wil is a great writer and worth reading. In this case, I'm going to raise objections to his thesis, but I have tremendous respect for his credentials. That said, I think the comparison to mining is a stretch, also farming, but lets start with mining.

Wil makes it sound like most mines blow up or explode at the first touch of a nugget of whatever you're trying to uncover. Or alternately that after taking investor money and building all the mine infrastructure, you sell it off as soon as you strike it rich. I would think the opposite is true, the last thing the mine owner would want to do is flog it off just when it starts making big money.

Eventually mines run out this is true, but sometimes they last for decades if not hundreds of years (the hundreds of years was probably more common before modern methods).

Secondly, with the mines if you read Jared Diamond's† book, I think it is called Collapse, he talks about this in great detail. And the biggest problem with mining is actually what happens when the mine closes. According to his research, nowadays the mining company is required to estimate the cleanup costs, and over the lifetime of the mine they contribute to a fund to cover the cleanup cost. Sounds good, right? The problem of course is that it is the company that estimates the costs, and they have an incentive to grossly underestimate the costs of cleanup. The usual discrepancy is something like two orders of magnitude. Ie assuming a large mine the company estimates costs of 10 million, hands the state govt a cheque for that as it closes shop. Then when the state govt discovers the actual cost is approx 1 Billion (maybe more) the company (which has long paid out all its funds as dividends to its shareholders) shrugs and declares bankruptcy.

I don't think that there is really any parallel in IT in terms of cleanup costs. You could argue that Y2K was similar, but I would point out that wasn't a uniquely mining only problem. All kinds of software was effected, from mining (startups on steroids), farming (slow and steady startups, the tortoise vs the hare), vendors, universities, consultants and even your big software retailers (Microsoft) all had this problem.

Okay, he admits he's stretching the metaphor (on the rack as it were). :D

What about farming? Personally I'm a fan of farming in the software sense, but farming in the real world is a nightmare. Assuming you don't manage to destroy the land, farmers I've talked to say that in good years they are making ~4% (return on capital), and in bad years they are losing 2-3%, and there are more bad years than good years. How do they survive? Typically by taking loans out against the (ever increasing) value of the property. But if the value of the property doesn't keep going up, or if the banks decide not to loan the farmers money, or if there is a particularly bad drought... then farming is much worse than mining and you get farmers walking away from their land, or just dying on it. Jared talks a little bit about how bad mining is, but the main thrust of his book is that improperly managed farming KILLS ENTIRE CIVILIZATIONS. In terms of cost/benefit, I think dirty water from mining >>> extinction. :D

He touches on another metaphor, the Lottery. Lotteries are usually regarded as a bad thing (a tax on people who are bad at math). The problem is that for every $1.00 you put in you get back out say $0.40 on average. In other words, all lotteries have a negative expectancy (with the notable exception of the UK Lottery, because even though you are unlikely to win, at the end of the day you can still get back all the money you spent on it (it is more similar to a savings account with pathetically low interest, and a miniscule chance of some excitement).

Okay, fine, lets take it as given that 'lotteries' with negative expectancy are bad....

If the 'software mining' (ie startup) industry was a lottery, would it have a negative expectancy? I suggest probably not. What if there was a lottery that for every $1 ticket there is a 1% chance of winning $200? That'd be a positive expectancy! I'd play that, you'd have to be bad at maths not to. Moreover, even if it was break even (ie for every millionaire ten people have to gamble and lose their house), as the mining example shows, sometimes there are hidden costs/benefits. I'm guessing that the startup 'lottery' has a positive expectancy (especially in silicon Valley, perhaps not everywhere else in the world), but if someone argued that the benefit to society of all the startups is negative I'd think they were crazy.

An example: I've heard it said that since the beginning of commercial flight in the US that the industry as a whole has barely (or not even) broken even. But to suggest that I personally don't benefit from the ability to fly round the world in 30 hours as compared to sailing round the world in six months is ludicrous. Even if the airline industry didn't make their average investor rich, it provided more than enough benefit to society to be able to justify its existence.

Lastly, and I suspect this is very wall of text so I apologise, there is a logical flaw underpinning Wil's entire thesis. He assumes that somehow the IT industry is special. He assumes if you launch a software company with an exit strategy that is somehow different (bad) compared to say launching a furniture company with an exit strategy.

I think that rather than just assuming that software is different in this regard, I think he should at least try to make an argument to that effect.

†If the name is familiar, he wrote Guns Germs and Steel as well, which is one of those books that lots of people have heard of, but few have read :D

Re: Success, and Farming vs. Mining

#42
post #38
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just give it to him already. Ask him to pay shipping, and bask in the good deed while you wait for your new machine. Rather than asking him to part with a small amount of money he probably can't really afford and you likely don't really need, tell him to pass the favor on to someone else someday.

Perhaps he's too proud to accept charity from a stranger. Offering to sell it to him for whatever he can comfortably pay (no matter how small) is both generous and respectful. If he cannot afford even a penny, I'm happy to pay shipping as well...

It's a generous offer in either case, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I just wanted to point out that without some price guidance, it can awkward telling someone how much you can afford to pay for fear that they will consider the low number insulting. I think explicitly telling him that you will do it for free but asking for money if he can afford it is a great compromise. Good on you!

Re: Success, and Farming vs. Mining

#43

You have to be very careful when following advice like this, because a lot of the time things that look stupid and shortsighted simply reflect a deeper understanding of what the actual product is. For example, for many VC-funded and fast-growing startups, the product is not the website, software, whatever that they're showing users. It's the knowledge that users have a particular need, and that need can be satisfied…

[deleted]

Re: Success, and Farming vs. Mining

#44

You have to be very careful when following advice like this, because a lot of the time things that look stupid and shortsighted simply reflect a deeper understanding of what the actual product is. For example, for many VC-funded and fast-growing startups, the product is not the website, software, whatever that they're showing users. It's the knowledge that users have a particular need, and that need can be satisfied…

Also, I do not believe the knowledge of a specific need and the method of satisfying that need is what the startup sells. If that were the case, any big company could legally recreate what twitter or facebook does. Rather, I think the real value of startups is in the user affinity and traffic it experiences regularly. Google won't make twitter, because everyone already goes to twitter (this brings up an interesting point about making people feel like they have "things" on your site, which can help create a more secure user base, but that is a different point). Ad sales reflects traffic, sustainability reflects traffic, public influence reflects traffic. It all seems to break down to that, and that's what companies are betting on (or "mining") when they buy a start up. So, if a founder decides that he is interested in making a quick buck from the start, they won't work to establish a strong user affinity, or secure traffic levels, or significant public influence, and hence will be selling a low quality product. For an over rated opportunity-price, no less, because their pricing is based on the opportunity image created by older, successful, dedicated startups. This low quality atmosphere is what this writer warns against, for the benefit of buyers, sellers, and users. The markets have always secured demand for companies that create strong, stable foundations, and it was only a matter of time before the internet's companies started following the age old rules of capitalism too. So be warned, VCs and new founders alike. If you're not making a quality product, its only a matter of time before big companies figure out how to weed out the miners and it won't be as easy to make a quick buck with a low quality company.

Re: Success, and Farming vs. Mining

#45
post #19

I come from Montana, and I hate this dichotomy. The fundamental law of resources in this world is: if you can't farm it, you must mine it. They're a yin and yang. I come from Montana, a state which basically has only two industries: farming and mining. When you live that close to the land, it becomes very apparent who the actual producers are. Everything else is wanking. Productive wanking, but wanking nonetheless. T…

Tourism is very big in Montana too.

Re: Success, and Farming vs. Mining

#46
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps he's too proud to accept charity from a stranger. Offering to sell it to him for whatever he can comfortably pay (no matter how small) is both generous and respectful. If he cannot afford even a penny, I'm happy to pay shipping as well...

Uh... wow. This actually came at a crappy time for me, since right now I don't have a lot of disposable income - I'm 17 and jobless (no available transportation...). I would try to pay at least $100 or something, but right now I'm almost flat broke. If you're okay with going total charity, you can email me at tommy04@gmail.com so we can work it out, but if you're not, I understand.

You have mail.

Re: Success, and Farming vs. Mining

#47
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh... wow. This actually came at a crappy time for me, since right now I don't have a lot of disposable income - I'm 17 and jobless (no available transportation...). I would try to pay at least $100 or something, but right now I'm almost flat broke. If you're okay with going total charity, you can email me at tommy04@gmail.com so we can work it out, but if you're not, I understand.

You have mail.

Dude, you're awesome. Thanks :D

Re: Success, and Farming vs. Mining

#48
Ex-mining engineer here. Mining is very different to what Will describes. In fact, mining has very many similarities with the lifecycle of a software company.

Firstly there is the prospecting phase. This is akin to customer development. You look for where there might be traces of customers, and if you encounter them you drill a bit further to define the customers a bit better. Next, you do economic analysis to determine whether you are going to make a profit on this, or whether this is the right size/risk for your company. There is also a technical phase where you need to run trials to determine whether you will be able to successfully separate the minerals from the waste given whatever impurities that exist. You keep iterating, drilling, testing until you've hit the equivalent of product-market fit.

Then you have the expensive issue of scaling up. To build a mine takes great investment that will take years before it turns a profit. This is where the model diverges, because at this stage, the mining company has a defined asset but they do not build the mine themselves. These are done by a major contractor. It is like a giant civil engineering project and is managed as such.

When the mine is built (and roads, rails, port facilities are put in), the mining company then operates the mine. Operations is not anything like prospecting. It is dealing with daily issues and doing strategic planning, developing markets etc.. People live and work on a pretty steady basis, with rosters etc. In contrast, life as a prospector can be pretty rough. :)

Many startups function around the prospecting stages, since entry costs is lower but it is very risky. The rewards are high at this stage of course, but the prospectors have little ability to execute if they hit upon a mother load. Outside money will have to be brought in, or the prospector might sell up and get a nice exit.

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