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Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

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Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#41

Post by pjc50 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #23
macleginn wrote: post #13

One fascinating aspect of Tolkien’s oeuvre is that his writings are, how to put it, endlessly derivative. Not only did he use words from different languages, motifs from different mythologies, and images from different poetical traditions. He also mercilessly raided the writings of George MacDonald for characters and plot elements (try reading ‘Phantastes’ or ‘The Princess and the Goblin’ to appreciate just how freak…

He did it so well that most "high" fantasy that came out after him felt derivative of Tolkien. I'd really like to see counter-examples though; I feel like I haven't dived into the genre enough, in part because I'm turned off by the sheer volume of some book (series) on the one hand, and the juvenile tropes (generic hero's journey formula) on the other.

If you don't like hero's journey, you're probably going to struggle to like fantasy; on the other hand, both of Tolkein's most popular works embed the moral journey in a very literal, physical journey and do just fine.

UKLG's Earthsea is the series that I hear most often loved by other authors, although I'm not familiar with it myself.

Then there is Pratchett, who set out to do simple parody of high fantasy and ended up creating a deeply humanist character-driven universe.

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#42

Post by riffraff »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #23
macleginn wrote: post #13

One fascinating aspect of Tolkien’s oeuvre is that his writings are, how to put it, endlessly derivative. Not only did he use words from different languages, motifs from different mythologies, and images from different poetical traditions. He also mercilessly raided the writings of George MacDonald for characters and plot elements (try reading ‘Phantastes’ or ‘The Princess and the Goblin’ to appreciate just how freak…

He did it so well that most "high" fantasy that came out after him felt derivative of Tolkien. I'd really like to see counter-examples though; I feel like I haven't dived into the genre enough, in part because I'm turned off by the sheer volume of some book (series) on the one hand, and the juvenile tropes (generic hero's journey formula) on the other.

I would think "high fantasy" to be defined as "tolkienesque" (great evil to defeat and save the world).

But there's a ton of fantasy where the other important tropes of Tolkien (great lost past, the dark empire, all good on one side and all bad on the other, the pure heroes) is missing. The first that come to mind are "the wheel of time" and "the chronicles of Thomas covenant".

Also if you move from high fantasy there's a ton more interesting stuff, imvho :)

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#43

Post by gvjddbnvdrbv »

pjc50 wrote: post #41
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He did it so well that most "high" fantasy that came out after him felt derivative of Tolkien. I'd really like to see counter-examples though; I feel like I haven't dived into the genre enough, in part because I'm turned off by the sheer volume of some book (series) on the one hand, and the juvenile tropes (generic hero's journey formula) on the other.

If you don't like hero's journey, you're probably going to struggle to like fantasy; on the other hand, both of Tolkein's most popular works embed the moral journey in a very literal, physical journey and do just fine. UKLG's Earthsea is the series that I hear most often loved by other authors, although I'm not familiar with it myself. Then there is Pratchett, who set out to do simple parody of high fantasy and ended…

You should read UKLG's Earthsea. They are objectively quite simple books (targeted at teens) but they are fantastic.

As a side note in my opinion this series is an example of how the current phase of thinking someone has to be of a group to understand the group is wrong. The female author brilliantly captures a young male's journey towards a strong, compassionate, brave and very masculine manhood with all the mistakes along the way. As I grew up (and indeed still grow up) I often reflect on what Ged would do at different phases of his growth. So essentially the female UKLG is guiding me in my life. (Or maybe men and women are even more similar than I'm accounting for and a young woman's journey is just that similar to a man's).

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#44

Post by goto11 »

notahacker wrote: post #39
eredengrin wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also the whole mythology is directly based on christian mythology That sounds like a pretty big stretch to me, could you elaborate? I agree there are most certainly elements from Christianity in it, but claiming the entire thing is based directly on it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, nor does that seem to be how Tolkien viewed it, at least as far as I can tell. For example, in one particular quote in the p…

He apparently said 'the Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.' But what he didn't like were crude 'Saruman represents Judas' type comparisons, not least because he'd criticised his friend CS Lewis for being as explicit as to incorporate Jesus as a talking Lion who is resurrected into his novels and said he found their sy…

Gandalf "dying", fighting demons in the underworld, and returning as "Gandalf the White" is also a pretty clear parallel though. But arguably Tolkien is a better writer so it doesn't seem so on-the-nose.

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#45

Post by bryanrasmussen »

macleginn wrote: post #32
ttctciyf wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Endlessly derivative" aligns pretty well with Tolkien's idea of the "Cauldron of Story": > Speaking of the history of stories and especially of fairy-stories we may say that the Pot of Soup, the Cauldron of Story, has always been boiling, and to it have continually been added new bits, dainty and undainty. > For this reason, to take a casual example, the fact that a story resembling the one known as The Goosegirl (D…

Yes, so I hope it was okay with him when Lloyd Alexander took LOTR, watered it down, combined it with everything he could profitably extract from Mabinogion, and published the end result as the Chronicles of Prydain. On a more serious note, I would suggest that Tolkien with his unabashed traditionalism was actually a major figure in the 20th c. postmodernist tradition. The "Cauldron of Story" is not very far removed…

So out of all the lousy ripoffs of Tolkien in the world you decide to beat up Lloyd Alexander?!

on edit: obviously I ask because I find him miles better than some of the better known ones.

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#46

Post by thaumasiotes »

riffraff wrote: post #42
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He did it so well that most "high" fantasy that came out after him felt derivative of Tolkien. I'd really like to see counter-examples though; I feel like I haven't dived into the genre enough, in part because I'm turned off by the sheer volume of some book (series) on the one hand, and the juvenile tropes (generic hero's journey formula) on the other.

I would think "high fantasy" to be defined as "tolkienesque" (great evil to defeat and save the world). But there's a ton of fantasy where the other important tropes of Tolkien (great lost past, the dark empire, all good on one side and all bad on the other, the pure heroes) is missing. The first that come to mind are "the wheel of time" and "the chronicles of Thomas covenant". Also if you move from high fantasy ther…

> there's a ton of fantasy where the other important tropes of Tolkien (great lost past, the dark empire, all good on one side and all bad on the other, the pure heroes) is missing. The first that come to mind are "the wheel of time"

We must see different things. As I see the wheel of time:

- Great lost past. This one's obvious; the Age of Legend is a huge focus of the books.

- The dark empire. Doesn't exist in the present, but it is a feature of the great lost past.

- All good on one side and all bad on the other: this seems to describe the wheel of time well? The whole story arc is Rand fulfilling the separate prophecies of every ethnic group in the world, bringing them all under the same government (his), and taking them to battle the even more unified forces of evil.

- The pure heroes. Not sure what this means.

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#47

Post by toyg »

riffraff wrote: post #42
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He did it so well that most "high" fantasy that came out after him felt derivative of Tolkien. I'd really like to see counter-examples though; I feel like I haven't dived into the genre enough, in part because I'm turned off by the sheer volume of some book (series) on the one hand, and the juvenile tropes (generic hero's journey formula) on the other.

I would think "high fantasy" to be defined as "tolkienesque" (great evil to defeat and save the world). But there's a ton of fantasy where the other important tropes of Tolkien (great lost past, the dark empire, all good on one side and all bad on the other, the pure heroes) is missing. The first that come to mind are "the wheel of time" and "the chronicles of Thomas covenant". Also if you move from high fantasy ther…

“Thomas Covenant” scarred my early teenage years. It definitely took the genre into places it wasn’t meant to be. I think only The Witcher has done something similar since (although I’ve not read the books).

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#48

Post by 7thaccount »

macleginn wrote: post #13

One fascinating aspect of Tolkien’s oeuvre is that his writings are, how to put it, endlessly derivative. Not only did he use words from different languages, motifs from different mythologies, and images from different poetical traditions. He also mercilessly raided the writings of George MacDonald for characters and plot elements (try reading ‘Phantastes’ or ‘The Princess and the Goblin’ to appreciate just how freak…

I didn't know this yet it doesn't bother me. In fact, my favorite fantasy series is "the Dresden Files" which is not very poetic, but has an amazing story (you could call it derivative in a sense) where pretty much everything exists (vampires, werewolves, ghosts, ghouls, Norse gods, Greek gods, Queen Mab, wizardry, native American skinwalkers, Grendel, Cthulhu, angels... etc). The universe is huge and it feels like we're just getting started when were at book 14 (still quite a few more planned in the arc with books 15 & 16 coming out in a few months). It seems to follow the classic heroes journey as well, but doesn't suffer from it, but manages to create a deeply moving story.

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#49

Post by morelisp »

goto11 wrote: post #19
Causality1 wrote: post #2

Tolkien utterly detested people like the author of this article. As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical.... Other arrangements could be devised according to the tastes or views of those who like allegory or topical reference. But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary en…

I don't see the connection between the quote and the article. Tolkien is rejecting allegorical reading like "the ring symbolize the coronavirus, Saruman represent Trump" etc. The article is not about allegory though but about the intentions and influences of Tolkien. Tolkien was open about his influences and at times they are pretty blatant, like directly taking the names of dwarwes from the Edda. Also the whole myth…

Tolkien also contradicts himself by hinting at more direct allegories e.g. the dwarves as Jews during the later years of his life. Combined with his open lament for the Nazi appropriation of Norse mythology, it's hard to see how his fictional Eddaic / Judaic nexus is not among the most stereotypically prescriptive combination of metaphor, allegory, and moral. (Not intended as a negative criticism, because I think it justifies itself at every level.)

Authors don't always know what their work is about, especially as they're writing it.

Re: Tolkien’s Mythic Plan for England

#50

Post by rwnspace »

bjz_ wrote: post #40
have_faith wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we have an unhealthy obsession with trying to achieve 100% original thoughts and ideas, to the point that people often hide their influences unless they feel people will understand that they didn't borrow too much. Feels like a psychological trap.

Yeah, it's not an uncommon to feel this way, especially if you've not learned the humanities formally. Pretty much the first thing I learned in art theory at university was how much art depends on influence and appropriation, and that it's important to accept and embrace this. It was a hard lesson to learn as a young person striving to be original, but it's served me really well. Even as I now move into programming,…

"The key to originality is hiding your sources."

Adding on to this, the evolution of modern music, particularly sampling and DJing, is a very visceral example of how originality doesn't just appear in what sources you approach, it can also come from the /way/ you approach them.

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