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Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

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Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#41

Post by rsynnott »

jajag wrote: post #23
aclimatt wrote: post #20

Since the article only very lightly touches on it and some may be understandably confused about the "solidarity" between the Irish and Native Americans, the "Potato Famine" was only so deadly in Ireland to the Irish due to years of colonial rule -- not because the only food in Ireland were rotten potatoes. Ireland had plenty of food at the time. They even continued to export food to England. It's just that due to sys…

A more accurate portrayal of the situation is to say that Ireland of the time was a state whose economy depended on the export of premium food products - cattle, dairy & grain - whilst the majority of the population were subsistence tenant farmers who grew that produce in order to pay for their farm tenancies, whilst growing a side crop of potatoes in order to sustain themselves. When the potato blight occurred, they…

> But governments of the 1840s simply didn't have the scope of action available to a modern government

In previous famines (both in Ireland and elsewhere) the government stepped in and halted exports. Governmental behaviour during the great famine was a shift.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#42

Post by sudosteph »

xenocyon wrote: post #37
aclimatt wrote: post #20

Since the article only very lightly touches on it and some may be understandably confused about the "solidarity" between the Irish and Native Americans, the "Potato Famine" was only so deadly in Ireland to the Irish due to years of colonial rule -- not because the only food in Ireland were rotten potatoes. Ireland had plenty of food at the time. They even continued to export food to England. It's just that due to sys…

A bit of a digression, but the same was true of famines in India under British rule. India (i.e. Britain) was exporting rice and wheat to England at the same time that a third of Bengal died from starvation.

The famine/genocide in the Ukraine ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor )had a similar dynamic too. Ukraine was exporting food to the USSR while ~4 million native Ukranians died and millions more experienced serious sickness or complications / birth defects.

It's pretty sickening to consider how often man-made starvation has been used as a weapon against particular nations/ethnic groups. Especially since it so often gets hand-waved away as an "act of god" later.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#43

Post by bcoates »

patrickk wrote: post #24
aclimatt wrote: post #20

Since the article only very lightly touches on it and some may be understandably confused about the "solidarity" between the Irish and Native Americans, the "Potato Famine" was only so deadly in Ireland to the Irish due to years of colonial rule -- not because the only food in Ireland were rotten potatoes. Ireland had plenty of food at the time. They even continued to export food to England. It's just that due to sys…

The Whig party's laissez-faire economic ideology and the belief that Divine providence was punishing the lazy natives[1] were major factors explaining why the famine was so severe compared to previous blights. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/famine_01.sh...

Eeeh, this kind of looks like a British apologetic that ignores the whole "hundreds of years of colonial occupation" thing they were doing at the time.

Blaming the whigs for a technical agricultural policy point they were probably right about [1] while waving off the background of extractive colonialism that created the dependency on the potato crop is a little convenient

[1] when there's famine due to economic shortfall in a country with an agricultural economy, agriculture policy interventions like food dumping and banning exports can make things worse by collapsing the economy. if you want to help, don't send rules send money

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#44

Post by lucideer »

jajag wrote: post #23
aclimatt wrote: post #20

Since the article only very lightly touches on it and some may be understandably confused about the "solidarity" between the Irish and Native Americans, the "Potato Famine" was only so deadly in Ireland to the Irish due to years of colonial rule -- not because the only food in Ireland were rotten potatoes. Ireland had plenty of food at the time. They even continued to export food to England. It's just that due to sys…

A more accurate portrayal of the situation is to say that Ireland of the time was a state whose economy depended on the export of premium food products - cattle, dairy & grain - whilst the majority of the population were subsistence tenant farmers who grew that produce in order to pay for their farm tenancies, whilst growing a side crop of potatoes in order to sustain themselves. When the potato blight occurred, they…

I'm curious where you're getting your facts. Would be interested to read references to some assertions here.

> Ireland of the time was a state

As another (currently flagged?) sibling commenter has already pointed out, Ireland was not an independent state in the 1840s, it was ruled from London. This is, I think, pretty indisputable.

> Despite what's believed from the common narrative, most of the landlords, middlemen and exporters facilitating the trade and export of food from Ireland at this time were Irish, and many were Catholics

This is the one I have issue with. As someone only familiar with the "common narrative", could you elucidate with some links to sources on this? Everything I've read indicates that the majority of landlords were absentees from Great Britain, primarily Scottish & English Protestants.

It's certainly well-documented that Protestant landlords were not universally oppressive in Ireland at the time: there are plenty of accounts of wealthy families setting up soup kitchens and other nominally philanthropic acts, but I was unaware of the narrative of most landowners being Irish.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#45

Post by bcoates »

qwerty456127 wrote: post #11

I've already read the story a number of times (incl. here IIRC) during the recent weeks so, despite it's cool, heart-touching and inspiring, it's nothing new. What impressed me this time, however, is the quick read / deep read switch articles on this website have. It's the first time I see such and I bloody freakin wish every website had it!

Maybe we need a little badge for articles that are inverted-pyramid compliant and you can stop reading whenever you like

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#46

Post by camelite »

jajag wrote: post #30
paublyrne wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that it's a simplification to blame the famine on 'British oppression', but to say `governments of the 1840s simply didn't have the scope of action available to a modern government` is something of a strawman. There were a number of interventions accessible by the government. As parent points out there was ideological resistance to employing them, and where employed they were done so weakly and without enthus…

I didn't say that the British government had no scope of action, but that it was limited compare to what a modern government could do. That this was further compounded by the attitudes and beliefs of members of the government of the time there's no doubt. But to be explicit about this, I believe that had there been an independent Irish state at the time, it would have continued to export food because not to do so wou…

> it was limited compare to what a modern government could do

That's 100% irrelevant. Compare it to what the contemporary British government was capable of doing - the very same protagonists with the same means available to them, who refused to act in Ireland - which was to prevent starvation during a the Highland potato famine[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Potato_Famine#Famine_...

Trevelyan made completely clear that "the people cannot, under any circumstances, be allowed to starve" in a letter of September 1846.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#47

Post by camelite »

jajag wrote: post #32
Robotbeat wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m fairly centrist, almost a self-described neoliberal, but what you’re describing sounds like a convoluted argument to rationalize systemic oppression. I guess in many ways that’s what systems of property law and capitalism are for: ways for us to feel better about rationalising anti-social behavior as being a moral necessity even when plenty physical resources exist... “gotta pay rent, gotta pay debt, it’s only ri…

It was an attempt to explain the economic structure that would allow food to be exported from a country during a famine, not necessarily to rationalize and certainly not to excuse. The fact of the matter is that these kind of economic structures were not unique to Ireland of the time, nor would they have been absent in Ireland under a native non-colonial government.

You're profoundly mistaken in diagnosing the problem as economic. It was a political choice to allow the Irish to starve.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#48

Post by [deleted] »

bcoates wrote: post #43
patrickk wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Whig party's laissez-faire economic ideology and the belief that Divine providence was punishing the lazy natives[1] were major factors explaining why the famine was so severe compared to previous blights. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/famine_01.sh...

Eeeh, this kind of looks like a British apologetic that ignores the whole "hundreds of years of colonial occupation" thing they were doing at the time. Blaming the whigs for a technical agricultural policy point they were probably right about [1] while waving off the background of extractive colonialism that created the dependency on the potato crop is a little convenient [1] when there's famine due to economic short…

[deleted]

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#49

Post by chewz »

sudosteph wrote: post #42
xenocyon wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit of a digression, but the same was true of famines in India under British rule. India (i.e. Britain) was exporting rice and wheat to England at the same time that a third of Bengal died from starvation.

The famine/genocide in the Ukraine ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor )had a similar dynamic too. Ukraine was exporting food to the USSR while ~4 million native Ukranians died and millions more experienced serious sickness or complications / birth defects. It's pretty sickening to consider how often man-made starvation has been used as a weapon against particular nations/ethnic groups. Especially since it so o…

Last but not least

Great Chinese Famine - exporting food to finance rapid militarization. 15 milions dead - conservative estimate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao%27s_Great_Famine

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#50

Post by frabbit »

1cvmask wrote: post #9

Hear is another similar story with a twist from English royalty: https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/generous-turkish-...

That is particularly galling. It is interesting that the story was challenged in its totality when (ex) president Mary Robinson mentioned it during a visit to Turkey (she incorrectly stated that the heraldic coat of arms of Drogheda town contained a star-and-crescent in gratitude for this act, whereas it was the emblem of an earlier English military governor).
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