Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo • Hacker News Board

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#21

Post by patrickk » Mon, May 18, 2020, 1:26 PM UTC

nailer wrote: post #18

Having an Irish dad, there's a common sense of solidarity between Irish people and other groups who are often seen as oppressed. My Dad and uncles etc. would identify with the Black Panthers, and the PLO, as and a kid (in Australia) I'd wonder why these groups that were so far away and so different were important, and they'd say something along the lines of "because they're us" - like this is the most obvious thing t…

A similar dynamic is at play with Celtic fans (historically Catholic football club in Glasgow) and support for Palestine.

https://medium.com/@JohnWight1/celtic-football-fans-and-why-...

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#22

Post by doinathing » Mon, May 18, 2020, 1:41 PM UTC

mywacaday wrote: post #14

In 2015 my local town erected a sculpture to commemorate the event. Maybe that's why the story is fresh in Irish memory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindred_Spirits_(sculpture) https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/kindred-spirits-sculptur...

Seeing the donations coming in (and making one myself) I was reminded that this sculpture is the reason I know about the event in the first place and, saw the significance of the help, and felt moved to donate. It made me think a lot about how public art and the things we commemorate with public art can have a tangible impact on our actions and our beliefs.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#23

Post by jajag » Mon, May 18, 2020, 1:45 PM UTC

aclimatt wrote: post #20

Since the article only very lightly touches on it and some may be understandably confused about the "solidarity" between the Irish and Native Americans, the "Potato Famine" was only so deadly in Ireland to the Irish due to years of colonial rule -- not because the only food in Ireland were rotten potatoes. Ireland had plenty of food at the time. They even continued to export food to England. It's just that due to sys…

A more accurate portrayal of the situation is to say that Ireland of the time was a state whose economy depended on the export of premium food products - cattle, dairy & grain - whilst the majority of the population were subsistence tenant farmers who grew that produce in order to pay for their farm tenancies, whilst growing a side crop of potatoes in order to sustain themselves. When the potato blight occurred, they were still expected to pay their farm rents using the produce they produced despite this leaving them without a food crop for their own sustenance. Despite what's believed from the common narrative, most of the landlords, middlemen and exporters facilitating the trade and export of food from Ireland at this time were Irish, and many were Catholics; and they were operating within an economic system were these actions made sense. As they would have seen it, stopping the export of food stuffs would have caused economic collapse.

In a modern state with well developed central government, the state would have been able to step in and take appropriate actions. But governments of the 1840s simply didn't have the scope of action available to a modern government, or the necessary vision of their role to accompany that. The result was a tragedy of truly enormous proportions, and which certainly more could have been done to avoid; but to suggest that it was simply due to 'systematic oppression' is to greatly simplify the divisions that existed within Irish society at the time, or the motivations of those involved.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#24

Post by patrickk » Mon, May 18, 2020, 1:48 PM UTC

aclimatt wrote: post #20

Since the article only very lightly touches on it and some may be understandably confused about the "solidarity" between the Irish and Native Americans, the "Potato Famine" was only so deadly in Ireland to the Irish due to years of colonial rule -- not because the only food in Ireland were rotten potatoes. Ireland had plenty of food at the time. They even continued to export food to England. It's just that due to sys…

The Whig party's laissez-faire economic ideology and the belief that Divine providence was punishing the lazy natives[1] were major factors explaining why the famine was so severe compared to previous blights.

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/famine_01.sh...

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#25

Post by pas » Mon, May 18, 2020, 1:56 PM UTC

Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #8

Talanes wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who's still internalized pre-voting internet discussions, and just reads things without voting 99% of the time, I saw your comment and upvoted. Some real karma for you :)

I run a problem validation forum[1] where I'm experimenting with the karma system; one can donate karma to 'Down Vote' but not for an 'Up Vote'. 'Up Vote' privileges requires minimal karma(2), 'Down Vote' privileges are rather high(20). Karma is visible only to the owner and the moderators. Rationale being, people shouldn't be discouraged to post their problems however small or trivial it may sound and others to shar…

Slashdot used probabilistic anonymized meta-moderation. I think that should be used to weigh people's karma. (So someone that is deemed very wise by the meta-moderators should have more "power".)

I have no idea of the second order effects of this. Echo chambers are of course possible, just like without this.

Maybe adding a third layer would help to reward people who help diversify and rationalize discussions, and so on.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#26

Post by danharaj » Mon, May 18, 2020, 1:57 PM UTC

jajag wrote: post #23

aclimatt wrote: post #20

Since the article only very lightly touches on it and some may be understandably confused about the "solidarity" between the Irish and Native Americans, the "Potato Famine" was only so deadly in Ireland to the Irish due to years of colonial rule -- not because the only food in Ireland were rotten potatoes. Ireland had plenty of food at the time. They even continued to export food to England. It's just that due to sys…

A more accurate portrayal of the situation is to say that Ireland of the time was a state whose economy depended on the export of premium food products - cattle, dairy & grain - whilst the majority of the population were subsistence tenant farmers who grew that produce in order to pay for their farm tenancies, whilst growing a side crop of potatoes in order to sustain themselves. When the potato blight occurred, they…

Those poor capitalists and their empire just didn't have the means to let the filthy unwashed poor of Ireland eat. It was done out of economic necessity.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#27

Post by paublyrne » Mon, May 18, 2020, 2:07 PM UTC

jajag wrote: post #23

aclimatt wrote: post #20

Since the article only very lightly touches on it and some may be understandably confused about the "solidarity" between the Irish and Native Americans, the "Potato Famine" was only so deadly in Ireland to the Irish due to years of colonial rule -- not because the only food in Ireland were rotten potatoes. Ireland had plenty of food at the time. They even continued to export food to England. It's just that due to sys…

A more accurate portrayal of the situation is to say that Ireland of the time was a state whose economy depended on the export of premium food products - cattle, dairy & grain - whilst the majority of the population were subsistence tenant farmers who grew that produce in order to pay for their farm tenancies, whilst growing a side crop of potatoes in order to sustain themselves. When the potato blight occurred, they…

I agree that it's a simplification to blame the famine on 'British oppression', but to say `governments of the 1840s simply didn't have the scope of action available to a modern government` is something of a strawman.

There were a number of interventions accessible by the government. As parent points out there was ideological resistance to employing them, and where employed they were done so weakly and without enthusiasm. Sir Charles Trevelyan used the same argument you do - that there was ample actions Irish landlords could take directly - as an excuse for the government not to take action. Given he described the famine as a Godly judgement on the Irish, that argument is not a reasonable explanation for his approach.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#28

Post by Robotbeat » Mon, May 18, 2020, 2:08 PM UTC

jajag wrote: post #23

aclimatt wrote: post #20

Since the article only very lightly touches on it and some may be understandably confused about the "solidarity" between the Irish and Native Americans, the "Potato Famine" was only so deadly in Ireland to the Irish due to years of colonial rule -- not because the only food in Ireland were rotten potatoes. Ireland had plenty of food at the time. They even continued to export food to England. It's just that due to sys…

A more accurate portrayal of the situation is to say that Ireland of the time was a state whose economy depended on the export of premium food products - cattle, dairy & grain - whilst the majority of the population were subsistence tenant farmers who grew that produce in order to pay for their farm tenancies, whilst growing a side crop of potatoes in order to sustain themselves. When the potato blight occurred, they…

I’m fairly centrist, almost a self-described neoliberal, but what you’re describing sounds like a convoluted argument to rationalize systemic oppression. I guess in many ways that’s what systems of property law and capitalism are for: ways for us to feel better about rationalising anti-social behavior as being a moral necessity even when plenty physical resources exist... “gotta pay rent, gotta pay debt, it’s only right...”

...and I say that as someone who recognizes the value of property laws. They’re all still a myth entirely created by society, so if it’s the system of debt and ownership that caused these people to starve, that is absolutely still what you can call “systematic oppression,” particularly when these terms of oppression were created by colonial masters...

(And the key to maintaining colonial power and oppression is always to make the colonial system in the interests of local power brokers like the local landlords you mention... but this sort of laundering of guilt does not absolve the colonial masters...)

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#29

Post by hellofunk » Mon, May 18, 2020, 2:10 PM UTC

s_dev wrote: post #15

I read this -- very proud of the efforts of the Irish but proud also that they didn't forget those small acts of kindness. Showing gratitude is important and I think this shows gratitude for the solidarity shown in the past. We're also aware 'Choctaw' and 'Hopi' and 'Navajo' are all different tribes and Native Americans aren't a monolithic group. It's just hard if not nigh on impossible to give back to the exact peop…

The hundreds of Native American tribes of centuries past were as different from each other as they were different from European cultures. In fact the many different regions of Europe have always had much more in common with each other than the original tribes of North America had with each other.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#30

Post by jajag » Mon, May 18, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

paublyrne wrote: post #27

jajag wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more accurate portrayal of the situation is to say that Ireland of the time was a state whose economy depended on the export of premium food products - cattle, dairy & grain - whilst the majority of the population were subsistence tenant farmers who grew that produce in order to pay for their farm tenancies, whilst growing a side crop of potatoes in order to sustain themselves. When the potato blight occurred, they…

I agree that it's a simplification to blame the famine on 'British oppression', but to say `governments of the 1840s simply didn't have the scope of action available to a modern government` is something of a strawman. There were a number of interventions accessible by the government. As parent points out there was ideological resistance to employing them, and where employed they were done so weakly and without enthus…

I didn't say that the British government had no scope of action, but that it was limited compare to what a modern government could do. That this was further compounded by the attitudes and beliefs of members of the government of the time there's no doubt. But to be explicit about this, I believe that had there been an independent Irish state at the time, it would have continued to export food because not to do so would have been to risk economic collapse and would have outraged its merchant class.