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Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

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Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#41
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is "intelligence?" Can we separate it from society's conception of it? Can we state a computational definition rather than a definition in terms of satisfaction of cultural standards? We undervalue a lot of mental attributes - consistency of thought, sensitivity to subtle differences in concepts, patience, self-reflection, the ability to "go meta" etc. which cannot be detected by the rough and rigid abstract pro…

>I am highly turned off by the idea that we can't "become smart" after an early age. I feel like I "got smart" after I started playing go, I feel like I "got smart" after I learned category theory. The percentage of the population that can participate in the two activities you mentioned is probably less than 1%. You probably were smart at an early age.

You're justifying a hypothesis circularly.

I was somewhat gifted at an early age, but I consider my intellectual growth over the past 5 years (17-22) to vastly outstrip my growth before that.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#42
post #17

Can people who are not inherently 'gifted', start with an immense interest in math at a mid-point in their life, and still go on to make meaningful and significant contributions to the field? Probably not. In other words, is precocity a prerequisite to doing good work in Math? Maybe, depending on whether you by "precocity" you mean "demonstrated precocity". Intelligence is something you either have or don't have -- a…

What is "intelligence?" Can we separate it from society's conception of it? Can we state a computational definition rather than a definition in terms of satisfaction of cultural standards? We undervalue a lot of mental attributes - consistency of thought, sensitivity to subtle differences in concepts, patience, self-reflection, the ability to "go meta" etc. which cannot be detected by the rough and rigid abstract pro…

I'm not sure that your experience of feeling smarter contradicts cperciva's point about intelligence being determined early in life. I can see that there could be a difference between intelligence as some kind of innate capacity and how that capacity is applied to various tasks.

You can certainly learn more stuff and so be able to do more difficult things, but your ability to learn and apply knowledge may not be changing.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#43
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I am highly turned off by the idea that we can't "become smart" after an early age. I feel like I "got smart" after I started playing go, I feel like I "got smart" after I learned category theory. The percentage of the population that can participate in the two activities you mentioned is probably less than 1%. You probably were smart at an early age.

You're justifying a hypothesis circularly. I was somewhat gifted at an early age, but I consider my intellectual growth over the past 5 years (17-22) to vastly outstrip my growth before that.

Or, you had a certain innate intelligence to begin with, and are only now practicing with it.

At this point it's impossible to know one way or the other. Genetic intelligence versus developed intelligence is something that the top scientists of several fields are still investigating.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#44
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15? wow! may i look at your papers?

My publications are at http://www.daemonology.net/papers/ , but this doesn't include the work I did when I was 15 -- that was a novel algorithm for computing polynomial GCDs over algebraic number fields, which I never published due to unresolved loose ends involving high-degree fields (professors encouraged me to publish it anyway -- but I didn't want to published something "unfinished"). It turns out that those "loo…

damn good for 19 years old, but as i see there aren't groundbreaking works i hoped to see. =(

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#45
post #17

Can people who are not inherently 'gifted', start with an immense interest in math at a mid-point in their life, and still go on to make meaningful and significant contributions to the field? Probably not. In other words, is precocity a prerequisite to doing good work in Math? Maybe, depending on whether you by "precocity" you mean "demonstrated precocity". Intelligence is something you either have or don't have -- a…

What is "intelligence?" Can we separate it from society's conception of it? Can we state a computational definition rather than a definition in terms of satisfaction of cultural standards? We undervalue a lot of mental attributes - consistency of thought, sensitivity to subtle differences in concepts, patience, self-reflection, the ability to "go meta" etc. which cannot be detected by the rough and rigid abstract pro…

"Intelligence" is a hidden variable g, which comes out of statistical tests of various mental examinations. Basically, give a bunch of people a french test, a math test, a physics test, a driving test, etc.

Run statistical tests for hidden variables, and you will discover this mysterious hidden variable 'g'. It is relatively independent of cultural knowledge: i.e., french is nearly independent of g (1), while physics, plumbing and loading irregularly sized boxes into a truck are highly correlated to g. This all comes out of the statistical analysis, and is not assumed apriori.

Then look for correlations between g and career outcome (and other such things), you'll discover strong correlations there as well. Physicists tend to have high g, janitors low g, etc. For instance, I've never met a math/physics/eng faculty member with an IQ below 120 (though mine is below 100).

So this statistical measure g fits very closely with the intuitive picture of intelligence. It's not cultural, but we don't know what it means computationally either.

(1) Amoung frenchies, people with higher 'g' will score better on french tests. But a low g frenchy will beat a high g brit.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#46
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming as little as 10% could be nature, the lack of genetic conditions would mean a lot for top achievements. Also talking about a certain community doesn't necesarily mean something related to race. There could be some kind of selection for people that become jew marrying or people that quits.

I would also like to ask, how could such conclusions, were they actually true, be put to use by society? I haven't been able to identify any way to use such information which I wouldn't consider deeply immoral. But I have unusual views here.

"...how could such conclusions, were they actually true, be put to use by society?"

If there's a cause, someone could try to find out what it is and it might be useful. Or not. But knowledge isn't moral or inmoral, it's knowledge. Wishful ignorance is wrong for my sense of morality.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#47
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're justifying a hypothesis circularly. I was somewhat gifted at an early age, but I consider my intellectual growth over the past 5 years (17-22) to vastly outstrip my growth before that.

Or, you had a certain innate intelligence to begin with, and are only now practicing with it. At this point it's impossible to know one way or the other. Genetic intelligence versus developed intelligence is something that the top scientists of several fields are still investigating.

I don't think that we can really investigate "genetic intelligence" until we have a definition of intelligence which makes -any sense at all-, which we don't.

I find a lot of the opinions of neuroscientists I've talked to/read articles from to be really dogmatic in their interpretation of intelligence (probably because they aren't regularly faced with Very Hard Problems in the sense that mathematicians/computer scientists are - their conception of intelligence is often a little more superficial - but anyway, I'm massively generalizing).

My entire point is that I don't think it's useful to think about intelligence as a "thing." I think of the brain as a computational structure. At birth, it has certain properties. It changes in certain ways. It can get better or worse at certain tasks. Because Official People have to say Official Things they always treat their own statements about Intelligence as if they're objective and well-informed which, let me tell you, they are not.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#48
I'm surprised at how strongly held most of the opinions are argued in the forum. The reason why is that I know of very little scientific evidence that would lend people such certainty. Firstly, as I understand it, to date, there has been no longitudinal study of mathematics talent in people who develop in interest after adolescence. Secondly, the neurological basis of learning is a rapidly growing field, but the field right now may not have much to say about the development of mathematics talent. The points that have been made: i.e. that you can't do it may be true, it's just that you probably should take what they say with a grain of salt since they are talking about a subject that is not very well understood.

I would wager, though, that going from having a small knowledge of math to going to a level of knowledge of comparable size to a mathematics researcher is going to be very hard. People who focus on math starting freshman year of high school go through 4 years of high school + 4 years of college + 5-7 years of grad school = 13-15 years before they become research mathematicians. So it might take you 10+ years before you know enough to start contributing.

Additionally, if you read psychological research on expert performance (which you probably should, and Eric K. Andersson is one of the experts in that area so perhaps start with an article by him), it normally takes 10 years to develop expert skills in a field, and that expertise comes about from something he terms "deliberate practice". Check out: (http://projects.ict.usc.edu/itw/gel/EricssonDeliberatePracti...) The Role of Deliberate Practice in the Acquisition of Expert Performance.

Most evidence would indicate that the abilities of a Putnam fellow are probably not out of reach to somebody who uses a strict deliberate practice regimen to develop their working memory (google that with 'mathematics') of and the ability to execute the thousands of tricks that mathematicians employ to solve problems. I am not very confident in this particular assertion, and I believe there is only weak evidence for it, however, there is only weaker evidence against it (and most people who argue against it make use of hand-waving has their primary argumentative technique).

On the actual task of becoming a mathematician I suggest you read some essays by Gian-Carlo Rota (http://web.archive.org/web/20070630211817/www.rota.org/hotai...), in particular look at the "10 Lessons I wish I had been Taught" and the reflections on math and mathematicians. He points out that mathematicians seem to have only a couple of tricks up their sleeve which they apply over and over and over again.

  The points made by yelsgib are good since mathematics is about a community of researchers, and most problems have been looked at by hundreds of researchers.  At the very least you will need to attend conferences at Universities.
This brings me to my final point, which is that if you want to make contributions to the field you'll make it a lot easier on yourself if you attend grad school in mathematics. In general people don't have to pay for math grad school, but it will cost you time. The reason why I say that it will make your life easier is that, firstly, math grad school will induct you into the community of mathematicians. You'll have better guidance than I can give (I am a lowly undergraduate) on how to become a mathematician, and when you get to doing serious research you'll have an advisor who will (hopefully!) guide you through it. One of my friends who is finishing up his P.h.D in analysis points out that he would have no idea whether he was making progress or not if it weren't for his advisor (he's doing research on semiclassical wave functions). Secondly, you'll know whether mathematics is right for you.

And, if you plan on making 'significant' contributions you'll have to do more or less the same preparation that a math grad students goes through and you'll have to put in the same, if not more time as grad students do in preparation to do research.

I admit that I am curious to see what happens if you go through with such a project. It would take a great deal of perseverance on your part as you come across all the barriers I am facing (as a math major) as well as those that come about because of your age and station in life.

My main suggestion is to try to get into correspondence with mathematicians to try to get more guidance. This can be difficult because you are probably just starting out, but you will most likely find one or two gracious ones if you start trying to correspond with mathematics departments.

I lack the experience to be a good person to talk to but I am nearly always willing to discuss this sort of thing so feel free to send me an e-mail to [my sn without the 'm'] [the a with a circle around it] uchicago [period ] edu.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#49

All the easy math has been done. People have been working on Mathematics for a long, long time. To "make meaningful and significant contributions to the field" is one of the hardest intellectual tasks a person can do. It is probably impossible for someone at a midpoint in their lives to suddenly develop an interest in math and make a meaningful contribution. Even people who have been immersed in Mathematics their who…

I disagree with most of your points, though you're more qualified to talk on the subject than I am.

| All the easy math has been done.

How easy are we talking about? While I was in high school, I remember a news article about some other high-school-age kids that happened to a solve a long-standing and relatively simple problem in geometry involving triangles. I can't remember the specifics, nor can I find anything about it now, but I think there are still plenty of relatively entry-level problems to work on.

| It is probably impossible for someone at a midpoint in their lives to suddenly develop an interest in math and make a meaningful contribution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_amateur_mathematicians

It's a pretty crappy list, and most of the names are from centuries past, but there are a couple of interesting entries there.

| Do you have to be gifted to run in an Olympic Marathon?

Your example of Olympic marathons is specifically a zero-sum game, whereas mathematics is not.

| But then again, anytime a new field opens up there's hundreds of PHD students across the world that jump into it looking for a new bit of math to write their thesis on.

This seems to contradict your previous point that mathematics has become inaccessible. There are a few differences between a grad student and a sufficiently dedicated hobbyist, and none of them are genetic, nor are any of them necessarily bound by a particular age bracket. Indeed, someone in middle age could attend university on a specific curriculum, and in a few years be looking at the same problems as the PHD students. The older person might have some advantages in self discipline or experience in tangential fields.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#50
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is "intelligence?" Can we separate it from society's conception of it? Can we state a computational definition rather than a definition in terms of satisfaction of cultural standards? We undervalue a lot of mental attributes - consistency of thought, sensitivity to subtle differences in concepts, patience, self-reflection, the ability to "go meta" etc. which cannot be detected by the rough and rigid abstract pro…

I'm not sure that your experience of feeling smarter contradicts cperciva's point about intelligence being determined early in life. I can see that there could be a difference between intelligence as some kind of innate capacity and how that capacity is applied to various tasks. You can certainly learn more stuff and so be able to do more difficult things, but your ability to learn and apply knowledge may not be chan…

This is a good point. I agree that my feeling smarter does not actually mean that I am smarter. I -do- produce a lot more, but this could be due to other factors.

I think you're hitting very close to the important issue here which is that all of this is very difficult to define/think about without a really good idea of what sorts of computations our brains perform.

My point isn't really so much that I think it can change, even, it's that we should be way more skeptical when it comes to making claims about subtle concepts like these. Usually I find that those who say "we are only really growing intellectually until we're 5" have a very limited and kind of rigid conception of intelligence.

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