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Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

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21–30 of 89 posts

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#21
Precocity is overrated. To me, believing that genius is decided at age 0/5/10 whatever means that you are just rationalizing not working hard enough with "I am not a genius. I will not make it. Therefore no point in working hard".

The primary test really is : a) Are you having fun (with maths in this case)?

b) Are you willing to put time and effort into it? Note that the amount of time available may be one hurdle if you are starting at mid-age since its likely that you are pursuing it as a side hobby instead of a full time profession.

See Hamming's lecture on PG's site. Search particularly for "hard work is compounded" and "why is he so much smarter than me" or roughly along those lines.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#22
Anyone else see the flaw in asking a gifted mathematician about the human brain, merely because they're a gifted mathematician? cperciva is certainly very smart, and may also happen to know a thing or two about the subject...but mathematical ability doesn't necessarily correlate with knowledge of how humans learn or cognitive development.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#23

Anyone else see the flaw in asking a gifted mathematician about the human brain, merely because they're a gifted mathematician? cperciva is certainly very smart, and may also happen to know a thing or two about the subject...but mathematical ability doesn't necessarily correlate with knowledge of how humans learn or cognitive development.

I definitely, definitely agree. A lot of mathematicians I know are kind of self-appointed "kings of the mind" and so pontificate tremendously on subjects they're not really qualified to talk about. Not saying that cpervia is, but it's definitely a trend.

That being said, mathematicians definitely have (as a class) some good mental attributes - they usually think very consistently and can see very subtle flaws in arguments (especially common ones (it gets frustrating)). They also solve really tough problems which means that their ideas about problem solving (probably pretty central to the question of "what is intelligence?") are probably good, assuming they're self-reflective.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#24
post #19

Wasn't there a story recently on HN about a guy who proved a longstanding open problem as a hobby, and was a security watchman in his day job? (Or some other job, I don't know). I am surprised so many people here seem to lean towards "nature". I am pretty sure you can pick up mathematics at any age. Sometimes I also wonder: humans manage so many really complicated tasks in their daily lives, can it really be a much f…

There was such a story ( http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966679.html ), but the guy was "an accomplished mathematician" before becoming a security guard.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#25
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may well be true, but I think the problem of disentangling the incredibly powerful Jewish cultural influence (or any other cultural, influence, really, as a half-asian I can tell you my heritage helped push me) from whatever biological differences there might be is an incredibly tricky one. So I think that asserting such conclusions here is either chauvinist or premature.

Assuming as little as 10% could be nature, the lack of genetic conditions would mean a lot for top achievements. Also talking about a certain community doesn't necesarily mean something related to race. There could be some kind of selection for people that become jew marrying or people that quits.

I would also like to ask, how could such conclusions, were they actually true, be put to use by society?

I haven't been able to identify any way to use such information which I wouldn't consider deeply immoral. But I have unusual views here.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#26

Can people who are not inherently 'gifted', start with an immense interest in math at a mid-point in their life, and still go on to make meaningful and significant contributions to the field? Probably not. In other words, is precocity a prerequisite to doing good work in Math? Maybe, depending on whether you by "precocity" you mean "demonstrated precocity". Intelligence is something you either have or don't have -- a…

"not because it's particularly suited to prodigies, but rather because mathematics prodigies tend to get noticed. Some fields, like mathematics or chess, have little knowledge required before intellect can be applied"

it is not true. imo modern math requires years of study to reach the border of known.

to topic starter: i know pretty good mathematicians who think that geniality exists and who think it does not.

i thought about it for a while and come to conclusion that it does not matter.

The right question to ask: Am i enjoy (fall in love with) math?

p.s. those mathematicians who believe in existance of geniality think that "love math or not" is a good test.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#27
I have had similar thoughts recently. Although my desire to get better at maths is not to "make meaningful and significant contributions to the field". My desire is to make meaningful contributions to other fields. Reviving and extending my dusty math skills may be an essential component. So I think if you realign your question/purpose as I have, the answer is "yes". Otherwise, my instinct says "no".

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#28
All the easy math has been done. People have been working on Mathematics for a long, long time. To "make meaningful and significant contributions to the field" is one of the hardest intellectual tasks a person can do. It is probably impossible for someone at a midpoint in their lives to suddenly develop an interest in math and make a meaningful contribution. Even people who have been immersed in Mathematics their whole lives often cease to make major contributions in middle age.

You do have to be inherently gifted to be a good Mathematician. You even have to be really smart to be a mediocre one. This is hard stuff, the Olympic Marathon of intellectual pursuits. Do you have to be gifted to run in an Olympic Marathon? Someone that was merely determined might be able to qualify for it, but the ones that win are definitely genetic freaks.

You can certainly enjoy math without being a super-genious. If someone were dogged and creative enough and focused on a new enough subfield, they might even be able to contribute a little, provided they've kept their analytical facilities sharp in a field like Physics or Engineering. But then again, anytime a new field opens up there's hundreds of PHD students across the world that jump into it looking for a new bit of math to write their thesis on. It gets fleshed out pretty quick, and the low hanging fruits are the first to go, and the people picking the fruits are PHD math candidates.

Please note that this is just my opinion from being around Mathematicians. I'm not a Mathematician myself, but I was around them when I got an undergraduate degree in Mathematics. That degree taught me that Math was really hard and I would probably have a more significant impact on the world if I pursued something else.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#29
post #17

Can people who are not inherently 'gifted', start with an immense interest in math at a mid-point in their life, and still go on to make meaningful and significant contributions to the field? Probably not. In other words, is precocity a prerequisite to doing good work in Math? Maybe, depending on whether you by "precocity" you mean "demonstrated precocity". Intelligence is something you either have or don't have -- a…

What is "intelligence?" Can we separate it from society's conception of it? Can we state a computational definition rather than a definition in terms of satisfaction of cultural standards? We undervalue a lot of mental attributes - consistency of thought, sensitivity to subtle differences in concepts, patience, self-reflection, the ability to "go meta" etc. which cannot be detected by the rough and rigid abstract pro…

>I am highly turned off by the idea that we can't "become smart" after an early age. I feel like I "got smart" after I started playing go, I feel like I "got smart" after I learned category theory.

The percentage of the population that can participate in the two activities you mentioned is probably less than 1%. You probably were smart at an early age.

Re: Ask cperciva: Are great mathematicians born or made?

#30
I just read 'A Mathematician's Apology' where Hardy touches on this at one point. If you want to consider someone's opinion on your question (besides cperciva), consider Hardy's (because he was a great mathematican and a brutally honest person). Briefly, Hardy thought the ability to make deep contributions to mathematics erodes after middle age. He cites Euler, Abel, Ramanujan, et al. Hardy mentions Gauss who was old (55, I think) when he made a major contribution but, Hardy notes, the idea for it had germinated while Gauss was young. I personally think Nature plays a bigger part than nurture when it comes to mathematical ability (of the rarer kind). Ramanujan is a classic example. He had pretty much no nurture. Way before anyone knew or cared, he was producing stunning mathematical insights.
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