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Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

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Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#41

Post by doorhammer »

mckoss wrote: post #20
doorhammer wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But seriously. I don't think it's pragmatically relevant. I'm personally what you might call a soft-atheist, and I can tell you that when it comes down to brass tacks, my general disinterest in theism or atheism of any sort does little to inform my coding. It does, however, seem fair to say that if Wall's self-assessment is to be believed, then at least some part of his personality and personal history, which ultimat…

I don't mean to be disrespectful to Mr. Wall. Of course I admire his brilliant creations. I made my statement in the context where those of us that rely on reason and evidence are under attack in popular culture. And people tout lists of brilliant scientists who were also Christians, as though it were proof that belief in Christianity is a reasonable philosophy. I don't begrudge anyone their own personal beliefs. But…

Honestly? Christian beliefs do give me pause. I grew up in that, and I grew up in a subset that can be particularly ridiculous. My D&D games were less fantastic than my sundays at church. When it comes to popular Christianity and it's general adherents, we would probably agree on a lot of things. I was skeptical reading through the article, but by the end I was inspired by how Larry had synthesized his belief system and coding philosophy into a seemingly cohesive and fascinating whole. My guess is it's probably an edge case. My response to your post was strictly translating it as a response to Wall.

That said, the varieties of christianity and their resemblance to 5" fairies is widely disparate. (I know I mentioned Deists as one possibly more rational variation). I don't want to fall into the trap of overgeneralizing about anything.

My points here are really pretty specifically related to people who clearly display extra-ordinary ability in one area, and are defamed because they hold interest or beliefs in another area that's only vaguely related.

If you were being more general, then I apologize for my snarky posts. Of course the irony has already been pointed out, seeing as I condescended on your perceived condescension. Humility has never been my strong suit ;) Something about the programmers virtues.. now wait.. who talked about those

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#43

Post by nocman »

mckoss wrote: post #28
doorhammer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only thinly related, since I'm pretty sure Larry Wall isn't a deist, but it's always interesting to note that a number of the people involved in the United States inception didn't believe in Christianity in the way a lot of Christians think they do. For instance, Thomas Jefferson's edit of the bible (The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible a copy of the text: ht…

I think if you read the article, you have to come to the conclusion that Wall is a diest. "Wall is also a serious evangelical Christian, a member (and webmaster) of the New Life Church's Cupertino Church of the Nazarene." as well as some of his direct quotes in the interview.

I fail to see how the article, and particularly that quote in any way peg Wall as a Deist. Or were you rather arguing that he is a theist (not a Deist)? Deism and Evangelical Christianity aren't even close to the same thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

[edited to put in a needed question mark]

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#44

Post by stopmi »

pak wrote: post #35
stopmi wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

einstein-god relationship has been proven false repeatedly. it has stuck around because people keep mass-forwarding stuff like that.. "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly." from http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0691023689?ie=UTF8&tag=... and a l…

I didn't say he believed in a personal god. He believed in a more abstract sort of god, one that reflected the mysteries that humans will never penetrate; he also said this concept defined his sense of being religious. "A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the t…

source please? that was in response to a rabbi.. was he trying to be diplomatic?

so he was.. agnostic?

"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment." from: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7921.html

are agnostics believers? you are still assuming einstein is infallible. einstein believing in god would not really prove the existence of god

he also did not believe in black-holes etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein#Einstein.27s_controver...

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#45

Post by mckoss »

pak wrote: post #27
stopmi wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but it is relevant in the scientific community.. if you are religious/spiritual, then you have to believe some phenomena are inexplicable, as they are performed/commanded by some entity we cannot comprehend it just doesn't usually encourage the kind of inquisitive/iconoclastic/skeptical attitude that scientists need and if you are doing research, it could also result in confirmation bias why do you think it is not re…

"Why was the universe created?" Do you think science will ever answer this question? The universe as a whole is on some level inexplicable, unless we somehow manage to transcend our existence in it... Saying that a scientist's belief in God causes confirmation bias in his research results is more ad hominem and less productive criticism. Einstein believed in God, and in fact wrote extensively about the relationship h…

Maybe. Maybe not. But I certainly think we've advanced well beyond the 6 day creation myth of the bible.

Can you still call yourself a Christian if you selectively edit the parts of the Christian faith you chose to hold? If so, how much?

Most people don't actually hold their beliefs up to scrutiny. And none of us can claim to be totally consistent. My impression is that most Christian "scientists" (not Christian Scientists, TM), are really Judeo-Christian ethicists, and culturally connected to a Christian community. But they have left a literal belief in the Christian canon far behind.

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#47

Post by doorhammer »

mckoss wrote: post #28
doorhammer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only thinly related, since I'm pretty sure Larry Wall isn't a deist, but it's always interesting to note that a number of the people involved in the United States inception didn't believe in Christianity in the way a lot of Christians think they do. For instance, Thomas Jefferson's edit of the bible (The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible a copy of the text: ht…

I think if you read the article, you have to come to the conclusion that Wall is a diest. "Wall is also a serious evangelical Christian, a member (and webmaster) of the New Life Church's Cupertino Church of the Nazarene." as well as some of his direct quotes in the interview.

I'm really only vaguely familiar with Deism. I encounter most of this sort of thing second-hand from a friend of mine who is fascinated with all manner of religions. We both grew up in the same church, so we talk sometimes.

I just didn't want to slap that label on him without knowing. Seems like you're ahead of me on that curve, heh

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#48

Post by alinajaf »

mckoss wrote: post #3

It never fails to amaze me how otherwise very intelligent and thoughtful people remain stuck believing in God. I must say I can't help feel a little less impressed with people when I learn they are theists.

Personally, it never fails to amaze me how otherwise very intelligent and thoughtful people remain stuck believing in an all knowing, all powerful, and apparently all loving sentient being who lives 'inside all of us', has a host of angels, who judges you when you die and depending on who you hear it from was revealed to us in a hate-filled book through a man who found an angel in a cave and used this power to carve an empire out of the arab world or instead revealed to us as the father of an admittedly decent dude, the story of which also happened to be documented in another suitably hate-filled book.

Can you learn from their teachings? Yes. The same way you can learn from any other self-help book. The danger of religion is that it often comes loaded with a message that has been refined, over centuries, to become the perfect weapon of control over you.

For this reason, I have to agree with the original poster. Theists who buy into the above stories and others like them, do not impress me.

NB: This is of course referring to the Judeo-Christian God with a capital G, not the Deist "Supreme Architect" (which to me feels like a stepping stone for theists who feel kinda atheist but aren't ready to take the plunge yet) or the 'universe' that you feel a part of when you lose your sense of identity through drugs or meditation.

Also, spirituality and prayer aren't necessarily bad things. In Japan I bought what's essentially a talisman of the god of good entrepreneurial fortune and took it with me to job interviews. I didn't believe that it would actually increase my chances of getting a job, but it became part of my pre-interview ritual and it was somehow 'nice' to know that I'd taken it to all my interviews.

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#50

Post by mckoss »

nocman wrote: post #43
mckoss wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if you read the article, you have to come to the conclusion that Wall is a diest. "Wall is also a serious evangelical Christian, a member (and webmaster) of the New Life Church's Cupertino Church of the Nazarene." as well as some of his direct quotes in the interview.

I fail to see how the article, and particularly that quote in any way peg Wall as a Deist. Or were you rather arguing that he is a theist (not a Deist)? Deism and Evangelical Christianity aren't even close to the same thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism [edited to put in a needed question mark]

My bad. You were right about my mistake. Thanks for the link ... I have idea if Wall falls into this category - seems unlikely.
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