Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999) • Hacker News Board

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#21

Post by dasil003 » Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 7:00 AM UTC

stopmi wrote: post #14

dasil003 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think God is? Evangelical atheists want him to be a straw man poking his head of the clouds Monty-Python-style; but what if God is just a metaphor for everything greater than the reality we are capable of understanding in our tiny carbon-based brains? Do you really want to believe that the only things that matter in life are those that can be hypothesized, measured, and analyzed with physical instruments?…

"that which can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof" and why give weight to the ramblings of the religious but not to all schizophrenics? shouldn't we give both views equal respect without calling to reason? edit: referring to the "difficult to tell the difference between real and unreal experiences/delusions/hallucinations" symptoms when i said schizophrenics

> "that which can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof"

Exactly! And vice versa!

Who said anything about "giving weight" to "ramblings"? You are fixated on everything being about truth and facts and who's right, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Maybe you don't want anything bigger than observable facts and theories based thereupon in your life, but I hope when your parents say they love you you don't tell yourself that it's simply endorphins firing in their brains.

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#22

Post by doorhammer » Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 7:00 AM UTC

mckoss wrote: post #13

epochwolf wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to understand how intelligence and being a theist are inversely related. I've always thought that there were serious limits to what science can prove. There are limits we what we can directly observe and indirect observation is significantly less reliable if you can't duplicate the predicted cause.

I think it takes an amazing disregard for evidence to hold on to being a Christian. We're not really talking about deep mysteries of the universe here. The Christian myth is so obviously false to anyone who takes an even casual look at the historical evidence. So how is it that the human mind, while being so good at reasoning in one sphere, can be so easily defeated in another. I have nothing against the culture or e…

This is only thinly related, since I'm pretty sure Larry Wall isn't a deist, but it's always interesting to note that a number of the people involved in the United States inception didn't believe in Christianity in the way a lot of Christians think they do. For instance, Thomas Jefferson's edit of the bible (The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

a copy of the text: http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/JefJesu.html

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#23

Post by rosser » Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 7:03 AM UTC

stopmi wrote: post #19

doorhammer wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It never fails to amaze me how otherwise very intelligent and thoughtful people remain stuck believing that it's relevant whether or not someone believes in God. I must say I can't help feel a little less impressed with people when I learn they are condescending.

but it is relevant in the scientific community.. if you are religious/spiritual, then you have to believe some phenomena are inexplicable, as they are performed/commanded by some entity we cannot comprehend it just doesn't usually encourage the kind of inquisitive/iconoclastic/skeptical attitude that scientists need and if you are doing research, it could also result in confirmation bias why do you think it is not re…

if you are religious/spiritual, then you have to believe some phenomena are inexplicable

Do I? Because, if so, I'm doing it wrong.

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#24

Post by nostrademons » Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 7:07 AM UTC

mckoss wrote: post #17

dasil003 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think God is? Evangelical atheists want him to be a straw man poking his head of the clouds Monty-Python-style; but what if God is just a metaphor for everything greater than the reality we are capable of understanding in our tiny carbon-based brains? Do you really want to believe that the only things that matter in life are those that can be hypothesized, measured, and analyzed with physical instruments?…

Evidence for the way the world works is all around us. Holding onto faith in creationism and other religion-based myths is holding many people back from understanding what real evidence we have about the world. If you want to go to the extreme of arguing that using evidence as a justification for believing (or not believing) in something is an act of faith, then I don't think we can have a reasonable argument about a…

Larry Wall said in the interview that he considers evolution to be fact.

And yes, the idea of using evidence as justification is itself an act of faith. This is not that extreme a position - take a look at The Structure of Scientific Revolutions for evidence (ironic, isn't it?) of that. At some point, you have to take some basic principles as given. Otherwise, you end up with circular reasoning.

The decision to slice the world into atheist vs. religious is itself a rather arbitrary one, just like how it's weird (when you think about it) that skin color has become the source of 500 years of hate, while nobody blinks twice (ha, ha) about someone's eye color. Why not slice the world into open-minded vs. close-minded people? There are open-minded theists (Wall is one of them) and close-minded atheists, just like there are close-minded theists and open-minded atheists.

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#25

Post by mckoss » Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 7:11 AM UTC

doorhammer wrote: post #6

mckoss wrote: post #3

It never fails to amaze me how otherwise very intelligent and thoughtful people remain stuck believing in God. I must say I can't help feel a little less impressed with people when I learn they are theists.

It never fails to amaze me how otherwise very intelligent and thoughtful people remain stuck believing that it's relevant whether or not someone believes in God. I must say I can't help feel a little less impressed with people when I learn they are condescending.

Sorry. I didn't mean to be condescending. I meant to emphasize that I am puzzled to see people straddling high logical faculties, while choosing to disregard those abilities when it comes to some of their beliefs.

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#26

Post by nostrademons » Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 7:12 AM UTC

mckoss wrote: post #20

doorhammer wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But seriously. I don't think it's pragmatically relevant. I'm personally what you might call a soft-atheist, and I can tell you that when it comes down to brass tacks, my general disinterest in theism or atheism of any sort does little to inform my coding. It does, however, seem fair to say that if Wall's self-assessment is to be believed, then at least some part of his personality and personal history, which ultimat…

I don't mean to be disrespectful to Mr. Wall. Of course I admire his brilliant creations. I made my statement in the context where those of us that rely on reason and evidence are under attack in popular culture. And people tout lists of brilliant scientists who were also Christians, as though it were proof that belief in Christianity is a reasonable philosophy. I don't begrudge anyone their own personal beliefs. But…

Steve Jobs reportedly drew inspiration from LSD while founding Apple Computer. Does that make Apple's accomplishments any less important?

The "greatness" of an invention isn't defined by the invention itself or even the inventor's state of mind, it's defined by how people react to it. That's what Wall meant when he talked about "designing a culture". Truly great inventions become that way because they draw people in; they're inclusive, and let people achieve all sorts of things that the original inventor may never have dreamed of.

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#27

Post by pak » Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 7:14 AM UTC

stopmi wrote: post #19

doorhammer wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It never fails to amaze me how otherwise very intelligent and thoughtful people remain stuck believing that it's relevant whether or not someone believes in God. I must say I can't help feel a little less impressed with people when I learn they are condescending.

but it is relevant in the scientific community.. if you are religious/spiritual, then you have to believe some phenomena are inexplicable, as they are performed/commanded by some entity we cannot comprehend it just doesn't usually encourage the kind of inquisitive/iconoclastic/skeptical attitude that scientists need and if you are doing research, it could also result in confirmation bias why do you think it is not re…

"Why was the universe created?"

Do you think science will ever answer this question? The universe as a whole is on some level inexplicable, unless we somehow manage to transcend our existence in it...

Saying that a scientist's belief in God causes confirmation bias in his research results is more ad hominem and less productive criticism. Einstein believed in God, and in fact wrote extensively about the relationship he felt between God and his theories of the universe. Likewise many scientists lead productive careers without an iota of their religion (or family, or culture, or whatever have you) impacting the rigor of their work.

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#28

Post by mckoss » Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 7:17 AM UTC

doorhammer wrote: post #22

mckoss wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it takes an amazing disregard for evidence to hold on to being a Christian. We're not really talking about deep mysteries of the universe here. The Christian myth is so obviously false to anyone who takes an even casual look at the historical evidence. So how is it that the human mind, while being so good at reasoning in one sphere, can be so easily defeated in another. I have nothing against the culture or e…

This is only thinly related, since I'm pretty sure Larry Wall isn't a deist, but it's always interesting to note that a number of the people involved in the United States inception didn't believe in Christianity in the way a lot of Christians think they do. For instance, Thomas Jefferson's edit of the bible (The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible a copy of the text: ht…

I think if you read the article, you have to come to the conclusion that Wall is a diest.

"Wall is also a serious evangelical Christian, a member (and webmaster) of the New Life Church's Cupertino Church of the Nazarene."

as well as some of his direct quotes in the interview.

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#29

Post by dasil003 » Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 7:19 AM UTC

mckoss wrote: post #17

dasil003 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think God is? Evangelical atheists want him to be a straw man poking his head of the clouds Monty-Python-style; but what if God is just a metaphor for everything greater than the reality we are capable of understanding in our tiny carbon-based brains? Do you really want to believe that the only things that matter in life are those that can be hypothesized, measured, and analyzed with physical instruments?…

Evidence for the way the world works is all around us. Holding onto faith in creationism and other religion-based myths is holding many people back from understanding what real evidence we have about the world. If you want to go to the extreme of arguing that using evidence as a justification for believing (or not believing) in something is an act of faith, then I don't think we can have a reasonable argument about a…

My words are carefully chosen and you're not really paying attention.

> Holding onto faith in creationism and other religion-based myths is holding many people back from understanding what real evidence we have about the world.

When did I say that all religion was good or that faith never caused any harm? The thesis I was arguing against was that someone who has faith or mentions god is suddenly less capable of rationality.

> If you want to go to the extreme of arguing that using evidence as a justification for believing (or not believing) in something is an act of faith

No this is not what I said. To paraphrase myself: There are ideas and concepts that go beyond physical reality, for which there is neither evidence for or against. People choose to believe one way or another for personal reasons, neither one is more rational. It makes a lot of self-proclaimed rationalist atheists wriggle and squirm, but if you truly believe that you can only believe things based on evidence, then you can not believe God does or doesn't exist, because God is a concept which is greater than our physical powers of observation.

Even if your try to invoke Occam's Razor, it all comes down to definitions, which of course is tough to pin down when it comes to something like God. You can define God literally as a bearded man in a throne and then it seems unlikely. You can define God as just one thing, anything, which is above our cognitive capacity, and then it seems likely.

And maybe you think I'm just playing games here, but I'm not. People are important. People's inspiration is important. Being able to say "I think there is a purpose to the universe" is an important thought to some people. Those people might even do great things that you admire (like, say, invent Perl). To come around and just flip the loony bit on because someone mentions the G word is not quite so cooly rational as said individual would like to believe.

I'm not here arguing for religion, I'm arguing for the fair judgement of an individual's true quality.

Re: Larry Wall on religion and Perl culture (1999)

#30

Post by mckoss » Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 7:23 AM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #24

mckoss wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evidence for the way the world works is all around us. Holding onto faith in creationism and other religion-based myths is holding many people back from understanding what real evidence we have about the world. If you want to go to the extreme of arguing that using evidence as a justification for believing (or not believing) in something is an act of faith, then I don't think we can have a reasonable argument about a…

Larry Wall said in the interview that he considers evolution to be fact. And yes, the idea of using evidence as justification is itself an act of faith. This is not that extreme a position - take a look at The Structure of Scientific Revolutions for evidence (ironic, isn't it?) of that. At some point, you have to take some basic principles as given. Otherwise, you end up with circular reasoning. The decision to slice…

His statements about having to integrate contradictions in his thinking are very interesting. I wouldn't have the patience for it. Why not just discard the single belief (held only on faith), and get rid of the contradictions in one fell swoop?

I can only believe that those positions hold such a cherished part of his personally identity, that he is unable, or unwilling to do it.