An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects • Hacker News Board

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#41

Post by batterystd » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 5:45 PM UTC

switzer wrote: post #20

013a wrote: post #4

These open source projects certainly love the very high quality, free services Github offers them, until they start learning how the sausage is made. ICE has done, and continues to do some terrible things. Horrible, horrible things; all legal things, but nonetheless horrible. But, frankly, if its legal, I am much less comfortable with Github's users subverting the US legal system by backdooring their moral code into…

Increasingly people (esp. Millennials) consider ethics and values toward the top when deciding whether to purchase or use a product. Why wouldn't they get together and shame a company when that company acts against their own moral values? Is the best possible solution to wait until the first Tuesday in November and hope for the best? I am sure many will also vote, call their elected officials, go to a protest. They'l…

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Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#42

Post by ng7j5d9 » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 5:46 PM UTC

Eldt wrote: post #26

ianai wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about funding GitHub so it has the ability to be picky and choosey about its contracts? It’s really easy to voice concern. But github can’t fund itself on concern.

Considering its size and popularity, why exactly can GitHub not be picky and choosey?

How would that even work? I imagine GitHub has a pretty typical sales department right now, with salesfolks who try to make deals selling licenses to anyone willing to buy (with perhaps a handful of well-understood exceptions, like no sales to Iran or North Korea).

If they add an ethical vetting layer in there, ok, sure this one is an easy call. But people will continue to complain about other government agencies, foreign and domestic. People will complain about corporations who violate privacy or violate open source licenses or violate web standards. People will complain about non-profits who align with religious or political interests. People will complain about polluters and arms manufacturers or companies with ties to polluters or arms manufacturers.

Next thing you know, GitHub can't sell to the State Department or DOJ or Ford or GM or Maersk or Boeing or Shell or Aramco or Google or Facebook or McKinsey or so many others. And, I dunno, cutting those organizations out might be a great ethical move, but I'm not sure spending significant amounts of time investigating organizations and adjudicating the results and deciding NOT to make sales and dealing with the inevitable lawsuits is going to help GitHub make money.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#43

Post by iudqnolq » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 5:49 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #35

ng7j5d9 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be interesting to see a dollar value next to each signature to indicate how much money GitHub stands to lose if the signatory were to take their business elsewhere.

To where? GitLab? [1] Microsoft is almost a trillion dollar company, GitLab is valued over a billion dollars, none of those signatories have enough revenue pull to matter. Vote, protest [2], run for office [2]. No other actions provide for material change. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21274511 (Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work ) [2] https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_pdf_file/kyr_... [3]…

That was the point of the comment you're responding to, I'm almost certain. They just said the same thing as you with less detail and more sarcasm.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#44

Post by ianai » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #38

ianai wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would strongly suggest people take their political concerns to the appropriate channels - write your representatives, be active in local town council meetings, stay informed on things that civic duty requires in the US (which is expensive, btw!), and vote. It might seem pointless, but all of those things do actually matter and have measurable impacts. Your representatives do actually listen to you if you vote for o…

Are you saying that if you see somebody doing something wrong, asking them to stop is an "inappropriate channel"?

These aren’t the people doing something wrong. GitHub staff are probably treated like second class Microsoft employees all the way up to the top management at github. Any one of them voicing concern or outrage over Microsoft’s or GitHubs customer contract(s) could very well lead to their termination - even at the C-level of github or whatever is the top of their management chain.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#45

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

iudqnolq wrote: post #43

toomuchtodo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To where? GitLab? [1] Microsoft is almost a trillion dollar company, GitLab is valued over a billion dollars, none of those signatories have enough revenue pull to matter. Vote, protest [2], run for office [2]. No other actions provide for material change. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21274511 (Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work ) [2] https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_pdf_file/kyr_... [3]…

That was the point of the comment you're responding to, I'm almost certain. They just said the same thing as you with less detail and more sarcasm.

[deleted]

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#46

Post by ergothus » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

013a wrote: post #4

These open source projects certainly love the very high quality, free services Github offers them, until they start learning how the sausage is made. ICE has done, and continues to do some terrible things. Horrible, horrible things; all legal things, but nonetheless horrible. But, frankly, if its legal, I am much less comfortable with Github's users subverting the US legal system by backdooring their moral code into…

> But, frankly, if its legal, I am much less comfortable with Github's users subverting the US legal system by backdooring their moral code into products these legal entities rely on

I don't follow this logic. If it's legal, we should not take moral stances in our actions outside of political actions? Doesn't the concept of "voting with your wallet" expressly involve taking moral stances in ALL actions? Sure, the open source projects may not be paying Github directly, but I'm VERY uncomfortable with saying that money is the only way to take a moral stance.

The idea that there's some set of actions that should be categorically immune to moral reactions is...weird at best and feels pretty darn dangerous. Almost no one wants to make every decision an intense moral debate, but the OPTION should exist. Otherwise you just create places to foster corruption.

> It's not that hard, but it is much harder than signing your name on a petition.

This feels like a false choice. Doing one doesn't mean the other is unavailable, and doing one doesn't mean you SHOULDN'T do the other. Indeed, if you think the stakes are high, doing both seems to be the best option.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#47

Post by throwthisaway2 » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 5:51 PM UTC

013a wrote: post #4

These open source projects certainly love the very high quality, free services Github offers them, until they start learning how the sausage is made. ICE has done, and continues to do some terrible things. Horrible, horrible things; all legal things, but nonetheless horrible. But, frankly, if its legal, I am much less comfortable with Github's users subverting the US legal system by backdooring their moral code into…

Im ok with it, just like im okbwith github serving ice. The fact is these guys dont pay and ice does. If github turns down this contract it will make other vendors scared. Whose next? Not good business. Get woke go broke.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#48

Post by iudqnolq » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 5:51 PM UTC

qwerty110291 wrote: post #6

decebalus1 wrote: post #3

Honestly, who gives a shit? The whole free market deal everyone is preaching about should just fix the problem. Git is decentralized. If you have a political/ethical problem with Github, move your stuff to Gitlab or host it yourself. It's not a big deal. Although I share some of the feelings in that letter, Github is free to do whatever it wants and we are (still) free to take our business wherever we want.

GitHub is a near monopolist. Several large projects like Python have been moved to GitHub under eager participation of Microsoft employees. Open source is no longer free, so we do not have a choice.

If most people choose to take their business to one firm, instead of the alternatives available to them, that may be bad but there's not a monopoly under the textbook definition.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#49

Post by ratsmack » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 5:51 PM UTC

staticassertion wrote: post #27

ianai wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about funding GitHub so it has the ability to be picky and choosey about its contracts? It’s really easy to voice concern. But github can’t fund itself on concern.

Github is owned by Microsoft, and was purchased for ~8 billion dollars.

Microsoft purchased Github as a business decision for the purpose of turning a profit, not for the purpose of running a charity for political means.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#50

Post by squidsurfer » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 5:52 PM UTC

Wonder if these social justice keyboard warriors know that most of the stuff at ICE that they are upset about happened under Obama. Where was the outrage then?