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Facebook to Exempt Opinion and Satire from Fact-Checking

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Re: Facebook to Exempt Opinion and Satire from Fact-Checking

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By my definition it is generally not possible for an entity to be an effective authority on what is or is not false or misleading. You could think of contrived examples which you could get nearly everybody to agree to as false, like claiming the sun revolved around the earth. But that’s not what’s being discussed. What’s being discussed is establishing Facebook (or other entities) as the ministry of truth. > There is…

What do you think of the Media Bias Chart? https://www.adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/ This project assesses the factual accuracy and political bias of a large number of articles (and by extension, the publishers of those articles). It seems to me that we have always had the ability to verify whether a given statement is factual or counterfactual, and that's a big part of what good journalism is. A verifiable fact is a…

So you don’t believe that you can use facts to mislead people, nor that you can mislead people without presenting anything as fact?

If you report a story, using only the facts that support your narrative, and omitting only the facts that don’t support it, have you lied? Have you reported propaganda?

What if you report a story, without reporting anything as a fact? What if you report “anonymous sources claim ___”, or “___ is being criticised for ___”, or “a verified document describes ___”. None of those reports involve any facts at all, nor any verifiable fictions.

What if you simply disagree on what the facts are?

What if you intentionally misinterpret something, in an effort to debunk it. If I make a mostly true statement, but use an obvious hyperbole, or get a minor detail wrong, am I “just using the English language as intended”, or “just spreading false information”.

> What do you think of the Media Bias Chart?

I think if you tasked 50 different research teams with producing their own chart with the methods they deemed best, that you’d get 50 different charts.

> It seems to me that we have always had the ability to verify whether a given statement is factual or counterfactual

We have always had the ability to enforce authority on others. That doesn’t mean we have had any success in creating authorities to be the arbiter of truth. In fact, we have a long history as a species of failing miserably at doing that.

Easily verifiable outright lies in the media do happen, but the cases where this is so black and white are incredibly uncommon, and that’s not what these systems are trying to deal with. I mean, recently “conspiracy theories” have become a target for moderation. Do you know what a conspiracy theory actually is? It’s any theory that two or more people conspired to do something. How much recent news reporting would fit that definition?

Any system that attempts to strip people of their right to critical though (which is what this is) is doomed to fail in the exact same way that every such system implemented throughout history has.

Re: Facebook to Exempt Opinion and Satire from Fact-Checking

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most reporting is based on opinions, or is at least misleading in the sense that it tends to be reported from well defined perspective. The editorial decisions about what to report, what to not report, what to report as important or credible, and what to report as irrelevant or non-credible, can all be used to mislead the audience and misrepresent events. I can’t think of one mainstream news outlet that doesn’t do th…

So how do you feel about Ofcom's rules in the UK that regulate fairness and bias in broadcast channels? They seem to work fairly well.

I think the UK has an extraordinarily bad track record of allowing freedom of expression. Regarding ofcom though, they actually perform very little regulation of accuracy and impartiality, most of their work is as an ordinary utilities regulator, much like the FCC. To describe their regulatory action of section 5 of their broadcasting code (the part related to accuracy and fairness) as “working fairly well” is generous. I’d say a better description would be “not really functional”.

Re: Facebook to Exempt Opinion and Satire from Fact-Checking

#43
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only person who can discern the truth is the individual We're all postmodernists now.

That’s mostly a reductio ad absurdism, but even Plato didn’t believe that people had the potential to be ethical objectivists, and he certainly wasn’t a postmodernist. Acting as an authority on which instances of political speech are true and which are false may be easier in some cases than others, but there’s no clear place to draw that line, and there’s no way to avoid imposing your own opinions on others.

You don’t need perfection. As long as you look for obvious objectively false statements you will reject quite a bit of propaganda / disinformation etc.

Re: Facebook to Exempt Opinion and Satire from Fact-Checking

#44
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s mostly a reductio ad absurdism, but even Plato didn’t believe that people had the potential to be ethical objectivists, and he certainly wasn’t a postmodernist. Acting as an authority on which instances of political speech are true and which are false may be easier in some cases than others, but there’s no clear place to draw that line, and there’s no way to avoid imposing your own opinions on others.

You don’t need perfection. As long as you look for obvious objectively false statements you will reject quite a bit of propaganda / disinformation etc.

You pretty much do in this case, since propaganda writers will adapt around your filter. Furthermore you have the problem of determining objective fact to filter on, which is a massive problem itself, as can be seen from the need for a filter in the first place.

Re: Facebook to Exempt Opinion and Satire from Fact-Checking

#45

Interesting times, and a slippery slope. These fairly square rules will surely cause other uproars as it invites back the alt-right with their tongue-in-cheek fascism. And the Facebook algorithms seem embarrassingly incapable of nuance, like this Tommy Robinson debacle: the mere mention of the name "Tommy Robinson" in a post (in Sweden) renders your profile inactive for several days or indefinitely. In other countrie…

We wouldn't allow the American government to behave this way, but somehow it's okay if a big corporation takes control of a large portion of communication and enacts these draconian rules. But it's a private totalitarian state. /s

Re: Facebook to Exempt Opinion and Satire from Fact-Checking

#46
post #2

Scott Adams claims that about 30% of people in a society just do not get humour / satire and take things at the first degree, particularly if it reinforces their convictions. If it is true, and I think he may have a point, there would be some value in labelling humour or satire as such. It sounds ridiculous, but like it is ridiculous to have a label “not suitable for your pets” on a microwave!

> Scott Adams claims that about 30% of people in a society just do not get humour / satire Satire, snark, and sarcasm have to be least effective way you could possibly choose to communicate. You are absolutely begging to be misunderstood and misquoted, either genuinely or maliciously, and then it's nigh on impossible to explain yourself as all your excuses just sound like like it-was-a-prank-bro . Another huge proble…

This has not been my experience. People, especially the ones these days, are bored to tears by facts. They don't care.

However, by pointing out absurdity in a way that invokes a positive state of being, welled crafted humor can not only get the point across more efficiently but propagate more effectively if people choose to retell the joke.

Re: Facebook to Exempt Opinion and Satire from Fact-Checking

#47

Interesting times, and a slippery slope. These fairly square rules will surely cause other uproars as it invites back the alt-right with their tongue-in-cheek fascism. And the Facebook algorithms seem embarrassingly incapable of nuance, like this Tommy Robinson debacle: the mere mention of the name "Tommy Robinson" in a post (in Sweden) renders your profile inactive for several days or indefinitely. In other countrie…

Where are you getting this information that mentioning Yaxley-Lennon's alter-ego gets the post deleted? Appears to be nonsense to me, I have seen plenty of posts with that name in them.

Re: Facebook to Exempt Opinion and Satire from Fact-Checking

#48
post #5

I can't help wondering if this was triggered by the whole Babylon Bee vs Snopes situation: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/03/us/snopes-babylon-bee.htm... https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-fact-checker-declares-war-on-...

Speaking of opinion pieces, that second one could really use some scrutiny.

Re: Facebook to Exempt Opinion and Satire from Fact-Checking

#49
post #2

Scott Adams claims that about 30% of people in a society just do not get humour / satire and take things at the first degree, particularly if it reinforces their convictions. If it is true, and I think he may have a point, there would be some value in labelling humour or satire as such. It sounds ridiculous, but like it is ridiculous to have a label “not suitable for your pets” on a microwave!

Scott Adams also claimed that women are treated with deference for the same reason children and mentally handicapped people are[0], so you'll have to forgive me for not giving too much credence to his unsourced statistics about the incompetence of a large fraction of humanity. [0] https://jezebel.com/dilbert-creator-deletes-misogynist-rant-...

Scott Adams is a commentator and humorist, not a researcher or academic. Most reasonable people don't expect others in such a position to cite statistics and evidence, just as we don't shout "citation needed" every time a comedian makes a joke and doesn't mention a study proving their punchline is indeed funny because it's true.

Even if Scott Adams wrote something legitimately offensive, that article, like everything on Jezebel, has an obvious agenda and uses language that rip-snorts while tip toeing around the points Scott was making. If anything, it's made me more sympathetic to him because the obviously bigoted author can't stand the fact that a "white male" said something contrary to the women-are-wonderful stereotype.

Re: Facebook to Exempt Opinion and Satire from Fact-Checking

#50
post #3

Most of the misinformation and propaganda out there is presented as "opinion" on all networks. The very little actual news on Fox, for example, is always accurate (and actually pretty good), so not being able to call them out on that takes away from the entire effort.

They have 5 good minutes per day.
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