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Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

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Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#41

Post by vidarh »

mcv wrote: post #27
dr_dshiv wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American transplant to Amsterdam, here's my take: The Dutch have embedded innovation/entrepreneurship so deeply into their society, it looks very different from American-style innovation. There are so many little innovative things here that startups would never get to. It is continuous, but not relentless -- as in, it occurs within the paradigm of working hours. Further, it tends to reflect the systemic intelli…

> "garbage pickup (yes! It's so futuristic!)" Is our garbage pickup futuristic? It's certainly efficient and practical (which are probably the most important and most typically Dutch values), but there's nothing about underground containers that's out of reach for other countries. I think much of our innovation and efficiency is actually in government organisations, from garbage pickup to our efficient and well-maint…

> It's true that we don't have the kind of startup culture that California has, despite attempts from the government.

Consider the sheer amount of government funding it took for Silicon Valley to become possible, before any other factors. Among other factors it took decades of massive military funding for the radio and semiconductor industry to lay the foundation and attract the talent that would later branch out.

The biggest barrier to replicating this is government willingness to pour that kind of money into tech in a single area.

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#42

Post by fauigerzigerk »

shadowprofile77 wrote: post #38
thepangolino wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s also conditioned by how hard it is to escape debt. In my country if you can’t pay back what you owe you turn into an indentured servant for life. No matter where you hide and what job you pick, the state will come and take most of your pay leaving you with just enough to get by.

Damn.. What country is this? Have you no bankruptcy protection laws?

I don't think there is a country without any sort of limited liability company. But many startup entrepreneurs will only be able to borrow money from the banks if they accept personal liability and provide collateral, guarantors, etc.

Bankruptcy protection for individuals is not available everywhere and it often comes with very onerous conditions.

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#43

Post by barry-cotter »

filleduchaos wrote: post #35
barry-cotter wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Igbo are an example of a merchant minority, like both Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews, Armenians, Parsis and the Chinese in Southeast Asia, Lebanese in West Africa, Latin America and elsewhere and Yankees in the US South. There’s always hostility to merchant minorities from the majority population but the degree of difference modulates the hostility. No Yankee enclave was ever burned in a pogrom in the South whereas…

Wikipedia articles *do very little to accurately convey cultures/situations one doesn't actually have experience with. The clear majority of Igbo people live in their homeland in Southeastern Nigeria. Even with the quarter to a third of Igbos that live in other parts of Nigeria I find the Western arrogance in calling people living in their own country a "merchant minority" rather dull. (For more context, there are th…

I’m sympathetic to the claim that it’s complicated, most things are, but the Igbo are clearly a merchant minority, and they’ve clearly been subjects of mob mass killings, aka pogroms as well as government sponsored mass killings based on their ethnic identity. Like every other merchant minority they also emigrate disproportionately looking for economic opportunities. If you guessed the ethnic makeup of Nigerians based on US or British populations you’d think Igbo were at least half of the population, not a minority.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_anti-Igbo_pogrom

The 1966 anti-Igbo pogrom was a series of massacres committed against Igbo people and other people of southern Nigerian origin living in northern Nigeria starting in May 1966 and reaching a peak after 29 September 1966.[1] These events led to the secession of the eastern Nigerian region and the declaration of the Republic of Biafra, which ultimately led to the Nigeria-Biafra war . The 1966 massacres of southern Nigerians have been described as a holocaust by "Greene -1975 . The Struggle for Secession 1966–70: A Personal Account of the Nigerian Civil War by N. U. Akpan. The Nigerian Civil War 1967–70. The Royal African society in January 1975 and others have variously been described as genocide.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_Civil_War

Persecution of Igbo Edit From June through October 1966, pogroms in the North killed an estimated 80,000 to 100,000 Igbo, half of them children, and caused more than a million to two million to flee to the Eastern Region.[77] 29 September 1966, was considered the worst day; because of massacres, it was called 'Black Thursday'.[78][79]

Ethnomusicologist Charles Keil, who was visiting Nigeria in 1966, recounted:

> The pogroms I witnessed in Makurdi, Nigeria (late Sept. 1966) were foreshadowed by months of intensive anti-Ibo and anti-Eastern conversations among Tiv, Idoma, Hausa and other Northerners resident in Makurdi, and, fitting a pattern replicated in city after city, the massacres were led by the Nigerian army. Before, during and after the slaughter, Col. Gowon could be heard over the radio issuing 'guarantees of safety' to all Easterners, all citizens of Nigeria, but the intent of the soldiers, the only power that counts in Nigeria now or then, was painfully clear. After counting the disemboweled bodies along the Makurdi road I was escorted back to the city by soldiers who apologised for the stench and explained politely that they were doing me and the world a great favor by eliminating Igbos.

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#44

Post by dustinmoris »

I think it's mostly down to human nature. People are tribal. If there's more people around one who are risk taking and trying to innovate, then others feel also more inclined to go down this path, whereas if there's almost nobody around one to do their own startup, then other people will also be less likely to do it, because noone wants to be alone in their risk taking.

It's seen everywhere in life and starts with kids. When you have one kid alone, he/she is less likely to jump of a 10m cliff, but if you have a group of kids who all jump into the water then others will follow. It's the same with adults, except you replace cliff jumping with risk taking/innovation/startups.

I base that opinion, because I've seen a lot of friends/family who come from a very risk averse culture/country move to a different place and then instantly change their attitudes as they see that it's more normal elsewhere and therefore they acustom to the thinking that it's more normal and ok to do it.

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#45

Post by mercer »

mcv wrote: post #27
dr_dshiv wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American transplant to Amsterdam, here's my take: The Dutch have embedded innovation/entrepreneurship so deeply into their society, it looks very different from American-style innovation. There are so many little innovative things here that startups would never get to. It is continuous, but not relentless -- as in, it occurs within the paradigm of working hours. Further, it tends to reflect the systemic intelli…

> "garbage pickup (yes! It's so futuristic!)" Is our garbage pickup futuristic? It's certainly efficient and practical (which are probably the most important and most typically Dutch values), but there's nothing about underground containers that's out of reach for other countries. I think much of our innovation and efficiency is actually in government organisations, from garbage pickup to our efficient and well-maint…

> It's true that we don't have the kind of startup culture that California has, despite attempts from the government.

I've been part of an Amsterdam startup and 'started' my own companies with various people a few times, and my impression is that there are a few reasons for this:

1. much as it's easy to start a company, it seems difficult to get funding. The government seems to be trying, but it still feels less than what I read about SV (or at least SV in the past?).

2. the market is much smaller. once you need to deal with other countries with other languages, (tax) regulations that are often much more complicated and bureaucratic, cultural differences, etc., things get much more difficult, and I've noticed multiple small startups around here just don't bother.

3. for tech startup type workers at least, but probably for most workers here, there's less of a culture of jumping into a startup. we like our steady jobs, we are quick to complain about overwork, and there's all sorts of (good) protections that possibly make it more difficult to find employees and grow.

In regards to 3, the startup I worked for consisted of a just-out-of-school programmer, a wealthy-and-connected but inexperienced CEO, and a fantastic and experienced designer who, in his forties, decided to do something 'risky' and 'new'. He also came from wealth but had done very well for himself too. and later a social media/marketing person who was just out of college.

So the startup either involved people who could put it on their CV regardless of how well things went, or people who could afford faffing about for a while. I suppose I was in the latter camp, although that's more because I just don't spend much money and make enough as a front-ender currently that I can do 'cool' things without much skin in the game.

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#46

Post by Merrill »

barry-cotter wrote: post #25
filleduchaos wrote: post #20

This is a topic that's particularly interesting to me because there's an ethnic group in my country - the Igbo - that are so pervasively, aggressively[0] entrepreneurial that it's become a meme. I can't really think of another culture that has business woven as tightly into its very bones - I haven't read the entire paper yet, but I'm curious to see if it mentions them at all. [0] In a good way. Several people have n…

The Igbo are an example of a merchant minority, like both Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews, Armenians, Parsis and the Chinese in Southeast Asia, Lebanese in West Africa, Latin America and elsewhere and Yankees in the US South. There’s always hostility to merchant minorities from the majority population but the degree of difference modulates the hostility. No Yankee enclave was ever burned in a pogrom in the South whereas…

Tribes: How Race, Religion and Identity Determine Success in the New Global Economy -- https://www.amazon.com/Tribes-Religion-Identity-Determine-Su...

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#47

Post by lnsru »

breadandcrumbel wrote: post #37

In the last few years I had the chance to live in Amsterdam, Buenos Aires, Perth, Sofia and Tel Aviv From all of those cities Amsterdam and Tel Aviv a lot more innovative and the number of entrepreneurs was high (at least felt like it) I think that there are few criterions that a city need to have to become a tech hub - Relatively small city - Society who worship startups and entrepreneurs - Many Programmers and engi…

IDF is a great Israel’s advantage. This high quality manpower is not only highly qualified, but also understands hierarchy and is not afraid to take responsibility when needed. The same is valid for Switzerland and their mandatory military service. University cannot replace army.

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#48

Post by johnisgood »

thepangolino wrote: post #34
amelius wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investment climate is also important. Perhaps in Europe, people are less inclined to borrow large sums of money?

That’s also conditioned by how hard it is to escape debt. In my country if you can’t pay back what you owe you turn into an indentured servant for life. No matter where you hide and what job you pick, the state will come and take most of your pay leaving you with just enough to get by.

> with just enough to get by.

I would like to say that it is not necessarily true either. I do not have to go far, I could just take a look at my mother. Funny thing is that it was not even her who asked for a loan, it was my father, but they were married. They divorced, and fought the "bank" for years to no end. My mother is still the one who is suffering from the actions of my father. She will, to her last day. It makes me sad, her pension probably will be negligible.

Regardless, my mother would not get by at all on her own. :/ She works hard physical labor which affected her health A LOT. She is working hard just so a huge percentage of her salary can be taken away for something she did not do.

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#49

Post by avip »

ido wrote: post #24
kayaeb wrote: post #14

There's a good book on this called "Why Nations Fail," [1] they posit that extractive economic policies (corrupted governments) essentially de-incentivize entrepreneurial businesses, while inclusive policies cause them to thrive. They use this argument to counter "Guns, Germs, and Steel" [2] to explain dramatic economic differences across country borders in similar environments. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/sho…

Interesting! Anecdotally I'm an Israeli who moved to Europe (first Austria then Germany) and at least from my layman's perspective both of these countries seem both a lot less entrepreneurial than Israel and a lot less corrupt... So I wonder if something unusual is going on or if one or more of my perceptions are wrong.

If Israel is "more entrepreneurial" than Germany (and it's probably not), it would be due to IDF tech leakage and the very supportive international Jewish community (that one is difficult to measure, but as this whole thread is anecdotal... I think the influx of Israeli-sympathetic money had a huge impact).

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#50

Post by filleduchaos »

barry-cotter wrote: post #43
filleduchaos wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia articles *do very little to accurately convey cultures/situations one doesn't actually have experience with. The clear majority of Igbo people live in their homeland in Southeastern Nigeria. Even with the quarter to a third of Igbos that live in other parts of Nigeria I find the Western arrogance in calling people living in their own country a "merchant minority" rather dull. (For more context, there are th…

I’m sympathetic to the claim that it’s complicated, most things are, but the Igbo are clearly a merchant minority, and they’ve clearly been subjects of mob mass killings, aka pogroms as well as government sponsored mass killings based on their ethnic identity. Like every other merchant minority they also emigrate disproportionately looking for economic opportunities. If you guessed the ethnic makeup of Nigerians base…

> the Igbo are clearly a merchant minority

Do you actually have anything to back this up that isn't a cursory read of Wikipedia? Who exactly of the over four hundred ethnic groups in Nigeria do you think is the majority to the Igbo "minority"? How on earth are you classifying populations in diaspora to people who, again, are living in their own country?

> they’ve clearly been subjects of mob mass killings, aka pogroms as well as government sponsored mass killings based on their ethnic identity

Ethnic discrimination does not automatically equal "merchant minority" (or a minority at all, in fact). The ethnic discrimination against the Igbo in Nigeria is a more complex situation than "foreigners bad" or "minorities different"; it's rooted more in colonialism than in anything else. Which is understandably difficult for people in the West to understand, but it would probably be easier if they stopped trying to fit everything into the boxes they know and actually engaged with what was before them.

> If you guessed the ethnic makeup of Nigerians based on US or British populations you’d think Igbo were at least half of the population, not a minority.

And the other half would almost entirely be Yoruba, but I don't see you leaping to call the Yoruba a merchant minority.

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