How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic? • Hacker News Board

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#41

Post by toomuchtodo » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 9:27 PM UTC

Ygg2 wrote: post #38

toomuchtodo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was the best, the entire US commercial generator fleet wouldn't be on death's door due to the economics. If you want to subsidize the last 59 US nuclear plants based on their low CO2 emissions, extending their operating license (if it can be done safely) until cleaner base load arrives, that's a sound decision. Building more nuclear is not. I question if we even have the fortitude to fund safe cleanup of existi…

> Batteries will get cheaper faster than nuclear ever will That's a bold claim. Batteries could also suffer from law of diminishing returns. It might not be physically possible to store energy much more densely, without catastrophic failures.

> That's a bold claim.

I don't think it is [1] [2]. Regardless of cell and pack density, there's plenty of open land to install outdoor enclosures. Utility storage isn't cars, where density is terribly important.

[1] https://i2.wp.com/evobsession.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06...

[2] https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/09/100-kwh-tesla-battery-c...

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#42

Post by garmaine » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

tomComb wrote: post #10

He says that Steel (and some other materials) are the most important issue because we don't yet have any proven good or easy way to reduce the CO2 impact of their production. That leads me to the opposite of Gates' conclusion. At this point there are many low hanging fruit, so until we have a good way to address steel production, we should keep the focus on those other measures. We should certainly be doing research…

This isn’t something more research will solve. Metals exist in ores as oxides. To get pure metal you have to reduce them, and that oxygen had to go somewhere, bound to something. There is no net zero process that will magic away those pesky atoms.

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#43

Post by bryanlarsen » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 9:32 PM UTC

My climate change plan is simple: a ratcheting carbon fee with dividend[1], together with a carbon tariff as part of a climate club[2]

The industries where it's easy will take the easy way to avoid the carbon fee.

The industries where it's hard will pay the fee but will see the ratchet coming and will be furiously researching alternatives. Worse come to worse, at some point the fee will be more than sequestration costs so they'll take that option.

I don't have to talk about any specific industry like steel because there is always sequestration as a backstop.

edit: of course my plan only works because there are lots of people like the companies Bill Gates linked to working on the details.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fee_and_dividend 2: https://issues.org/climate-clubs-to-overcome-free-riding/

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#44

Post by _Microft » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 9:32 PM UTC

garmaine wrote: post #36

SECProto wrote: post #33

> Making steel and other materials—such as cement, plastic, glass, aluminum, and paper—is the third biggest contributor of greenhouse gases, behind agriculture and making electricity While I agree in broad terms that eliminating greenhouse gases in the materials sector is important medium-term, I agree with other posters here that we need to focus hard on implementing solutions we DO have now - specifically, in the e…

It’s not the source of power. It’s the chemical process itself. You get oxygen out of a metal oxide by binding it with carbon and releasing the CO2. Canadian smelting is just as dirty in this respect. The only other alternative is electrolyzing water to get hydrogen, which binds with the metal oxide’s oxygen to make water again. But not only is this really inefficient by comparison, but now you’re adding O2 to the at…

Is using hydrogen for that an actual process or just an idea?

There's the problem that hydrogen can make metals brittle, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#45

Post by dmlorenzetti » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 9:35 PM UTC

tomComb wrote: post #10

He says that Steel (and some other materials) are the most important issue because we don't yet have any proven good or easy way to reduce the CO2 impact of their production. That leads me to the opposite of Gates' conclusion. At this point there are many low hanging fruit, so until we have a good way to address steel production, we should keep the focus on those other measures. We should certainly be doing research…

He doesn't say it's the most important issue.

He says it's "an important subject that deserves a lot more attention".

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#46

Post by news_to_me » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #43

My climate change plan is simple: a ratcheting carbon fee with dividend[1], together with a carbon tariff as part of a climate club[2] The industries where it's easy will take the easy way to avoid the carbon fee. The industries where it's hard will pay the fee but will see the ratchet coming and will be furiously researching alternatives. Worse come to worse, at some point the fee will be more than sequestration cos…

Cool, now the price of steel skyrockets and brings up the cost of everything that uses steel. Maybe we can find a way to do this in a less economically violent way?

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#47

Post by zizee » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

woranl wrote: post #22

If we have cheap reliable renewable electricity, then we can generate hydrogen from electrolysis, and use the hydrogen as fuel for steel production. Hydrogen burns even hotter than methane and it's clean. So, the key is we need renewable electricity.

I'm not super knowledgeable about this, but my understanding is that there are significant losses during electrolysis and probably when burning hydrogen. I expect just using an electric furnace would be more efficient.

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#48

Post by sirmike_ » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #43

My climate change plan is simple: a ratcheting carbon fee with dividend[1], together with a carbon tariff as part of a climate club[2] The industries where it's easy will take the easy way to avoid the carbon fee. The industries where it's hard will pay the fee but will see the ratchet coming and will be furiously researching alternatives. Worse come to worse, at some point the fee will be more than sequestration cos…

No, just no. adding extra taxes will not do anything to solve the climate problem. It will only put first world countries at a disadvantage to 2nd and third world who will continue along using coal and other cheaper forms of energy.

Why would I pay more taxes just to have them come back to me? No. Just no!

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#49

Post by semi-extrinsic » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 9:43 PM UTC

_Microft wrote: post #44

garmaine wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not the source of power. It’s the chemical process itself. You get oxygen out of a metal oxide by binding it with carbon and releasing the CO2. Canadian smelting is just as dirty in this respect. The only other alternative is electrolyzing water to get hydrogen, which binds with the metal oxide’s oxygen to make water again. But not only is this really inefficient by comparison, but now you’re adding O2 to the at…

Is using hydrogen for that an actual process or just an idea? There's the problem that hydrogen can make metals brittle, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

To answer the spirit of your question: yes, replacing carbon containing reducing agents in metal foundries etc is very much something that is being developed.

Re: How do we cut down on emissions from steel, cement, and plastic?

#50

Post by VBprogrammer » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 9:43 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #13

truculent wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unpopular opinion: adaptation at +4C is genocide

That seems likely. But (yet another unpopular opinion): "Zero emissions now" is also genocide, or at least large-scale death.

I don't know why this is being downvoted. If we went zero carbon tomorrow we'd have no replacement for the Haber process which produces the massive amounts of fertilizer needed to feed the human population.