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Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

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Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#41

Post by rossdavidh »

I probably do literal coding only about half my work hours. Even if I'm at a place where there's not many meetings or other bureaucratic time, there are other things like general planning, organization, documentation, working on architectural strategy, investigating potential new tools, etc.

What I have learned to do is to keep a list of these kinds of things, that have to be done "soon" but not immediately. When I get to the part of the day where my coding brain is getting weak, I switch over to that list. Sometimes for the rest of the day, but often just for half an hour or so until I am refreshed. Mostly, if you self-monitor, and have a ready list so you don't find your brain blanks out when it's time to think of a non-coding task that needs doing, you can balance coding and non-coding as needed throughout the day.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#43

Post by im_down_w_otp »

reggieband wrote: post #31

Take some time out of problem solving and put it to other uses. For example: - document systems - write tests - improve automation (build systems, helper scripts, etc.) - clean your desk - talk to a coworker - read / watch material online related to your work - go for a quick brisk walk - any activity to further a long-term career plan I know that feeling of short-term daily burnout. It is often I get to 4:30pm and I…

At least 5 of those 8 require problem-solving. Arguably 7 of them do.

I'm not sure I understand how doing those things would ease mental fatigue? Perhaps by at least breaking up the monotony?

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#44

Post by Tyler-Durden »

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #36

My last job, an msp, expected 100% of our time to be billed out. You didn't get lunches or breaks. If you got your work completed quicker so that you could hit the washroom or go for lunch, you were rewarded with more work. Furthermore, I was on-call 24x7 and near daily would be called for help afterhours. This wasn't smb stuff exclusively. This was federal governments, hospitals, prisons, fortune 100s. All of which…

No one in the world should work under such conditions.

To me it doesn't sound like it could be much worse than what you described

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#46

Post by BuckRogers »

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #36

My last job, an msp, expected 100% of our time to be billed out. You didn't get lunches or breaks. If you got your work completed quicker so that you could hit the washroom or go for lunch, you were rewarded with more work. Furthermore, I was on-call 24x7 and near daily would be called for help afterhours. This wasn't smb stuff exclusively. This was federal governments, hospitals, prisons, fortune 100s. All of which…

You were dealing with a very toxic person, who said a lot more about you behind your back then you were aware of.

I’ve lived a lot of the same stories. Although yours may be the worst I’ve ever heard, simply because I’ve never been fired. But bits and pieces of your story are in just about every job I’ve had.

I’m no longer confused as to why a lot of people simply don’t want to work anymore. Getting enough money and quitting, starting a menial business, or getting on government assistance makes a lot more sense than your story.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#47

Post by steve_adams_86 »

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #43
reggieband wrote: post #31

Take some time out of problem solving and put it to other uses. For example: - document systems - write tests - improve automation (build systems, helper scripts, etc.) - clean your desk - talk to a coworker - read / watch material online related to your work - go for a quick brisk walk - any activity to further a long-term career plan I know that feeling of short-term daily burnout. It is often I get to 4:30pm and I…

At least 5 of those 8 require problem-solving. Arguably 7 of them do. I'm not sure I understand how doing those things would ease mental fatigue? Perhaps by at least breaking up the monotony?

I think sometimes some of these can be great strategies for relieving your mind from more difficult tasks. For me documenting or writing tests isn't a real mental break, but it sometimes feels like one if I've been hacking away at a tough problem for 4 hours.

It isn't complete relief like going for a walk but it can be a better use of your time.

I found working in labour jobs the same. Say you're packing sacks of cement up a hill for 2 hours to a lot with bad access, and you're burnt out. You've got another 2 hours of hauling sacks to go, or you could take a break and paint some siding. If you push through the cement job you're going to be really burnt out today and probably tomorrow too, and if you paint the siding, you'll recover a little and feel way better today and tomorrow. Work will still get done though. If the job is urgent and taking a walk isn't really an option, painting the siding is your best bet.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#48

Post by mindcrash »

You have a 8 hour workday. From those 8 hours you spend approximately 4 hours primarily on job output. The other 4 hours are spent on secondary things like reading/replying to emails, coaching juniors, taking a rest (it is imperative to do so), socializing, reading Hacker News and so on.

Anyone up the chain expecting you to work 8 hours 100% productively is completely unrealistic and IMO provide a good reason to find job happiness somewhere else.

Best regards,

A product architect who doesn't treat his devs as robots

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#49

Post by reggieband »

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #43
reggieband wrote: post #31

Take some time out of problem solving and put it to other uses. For example: - document systems - write tests - improve automation (build systems, helper scripts, etc.) - clean your desk - talk to a coworker - read / watch material online related to your work - go for a quick brisk walk - any activity to further a long-term career plan I know that feeling of short-term daily burnout. It is often I get to 4:30pm and I…

At least 5 of those 8 require problem-solving. Arguably 7 of them do. I'm not sure I understand how doing those things would ease mental fatigue? Perhaps by at least breaking up the monotony?

I'm not sure how talking to coworkers, going for a walk or cleaning your desk could be classified as problem solving but I admit everyone sees things differently. I feel quite relaxed while reading online technical articles, it feels to me nothing like problem solving. If it does cause you stress or mental fatigue then please consider another activity.

The real point is there are many things one can do while in the office that can provide distraction from mental stress while still being valuable. I would argue against a definition of "problem solving" as literally anything that happens while within the walls of an office.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#50

Post by sebazzz »

mindcrash wrote: post #48

You have a 8 hour workday. From those 8 hours you spend approximately 4 hours primarily on job output. The other 4 hours are spent on secondary things like reading/replying to emails, coaching juniors, taking a rest (it is imperative to do so), socializing, reading Hacker News and so on. Anyone up the chain expecting you to work 8 hours 100% productively is completely unrealistic and IMO provide a good reason to find…

My employer uses a heavy anti-malware solution (configured to scan any file access or modification) I will not name here: I'm spending at least one additional hour in waiting on my computer.
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