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Ask YC: Why the degree?

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#41

Post by bluelu »

A degree is a proof that you were able to complete something where other have failed, and that you are willing to learn and learn fast. It also proves that you are not completely dumb, since few people fail at university.

Even without degree, I think that you still have a chance to get a job if your resume and your projects you have are good enough (or if you run a business in the past). It probably get's more difficult in the consulting business, as the company sells you (and your resume) to their customers, so it get's difficult to sell you for a premium rate if you got no degrees or certification.

That being said, If you haven't done so far, I would read a few algorithm classes, because that's something you normally never learn while programming (also a good tip for the Twitter guys... ;))

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#42

Post by dhimes »

LPTS wrote: post #33
yummyfajitas wrote: post #10

>For all the company knows, I (and countless others) could be the best developers they'd ever meet. And yet we're automatically excluded from even applying. The game is about probability, not possibility. The assumption is: P(qualified | degree) > P(qualified | no degree) That's probably reasonable, since schools do filter out at least some idiots. To find a candidate, one must interview roughly 1/P candidates. If in…

The assumption does not hold with more information. First, self teaching processes filter out idiots too, since idiots can't self teach. P(qualified | (no degree + autodidactic)) > P(qualified | (Degree + little self teaching ability))

True, but it's getting "more information" that is costly. If someone else can do it for you, so much the better. Personal recommendations are the best source (if you know and trust the recommender).

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#43

Post by daveambrose »

matthewking wrote: post #22
mrtron wrote: post #19

"I know several people that have degree's in computer science, and none have any magical abilities that you only pickup at university." I think you are shortchanging the value of a formal education. You are forced to learn things you don't necessarily enjoy. For example, I was forced to take a few stats courses which I found extremely boring, but recently at work it was incredibly valuable. I know I thought I was a g…

I'm not meaning to take any value what so ever from a degree, and I believe that people that have them have accomplished something worthwhile. What I am saying is that people shouldn't just dismiss people without a degree, because those of us who have a true interest in what we do, and learn, read books and experiment on our own - without being forced, or having a set syllabus to follow can become very talented devel…

Matthew, I agree, however, there's a general trend I've noticed within this conversation: technical v thoughtful ability.

From my experience, programming requires both understanding and experience. What you learn in college does not necessarily correlate to success in a technical field (especially when you're coming out of a Liberal Arts university as I did).

Simply put, when it comes to a technical field:

(Past experience + understanding + execution) > a Liberal Arts degree.

But you shouldn't disregard a degree when it comes to thinking + innovation. College provides an invaluable means to look/analyze the world around you.

I wrote about this a few days ago that may be of interest:

http://datainsightsideas.com/post/35471878/

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#44

Post by icey »

bluelu wrote: post #41

A degree is a proof that you were able to complete something where other have failed, and that you are willing to learn and learn fast. It also proves that you are not completely dumb, since few people fail at university. Even without degree, I think that you still have a chance to get a job if your resume and your projects you have are good enough (or if you run a business in the past). It probably get's more diffic…

I've consulted for a lot of years with out a degree. I don't think it would be possible without a massive stack of recommendations and success stories.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#45

Post by diego »

kashif wrote: post #30
yummyfajitas wrote: post #10

>For all the company knows, I (and countless others) could be the best developers they'd ever meet. And yet we're automatically excluded from even applying. The game is about probability, not possibility. The assumption is: P(qualified | degree) > P(qualified | no degree) That's probably reasonable, since schools do filter out at least some idiots. To find a candidate, one must interview roughly 1/P candidates. If in…

That assumption will only allow you to pick based on a relative standard not an absolute one. Also, a degree being an eligibility criteria makes no sense. If you want to hire well then you should be willing to meet any relevant candidate. So in effect, with a degree being a REQUIREMENT you are actually lowering the pool of people who will apply and hence reducing your probability not increasing it.

The most desirable companies get so many resumes that they need to filter out most of them. I used to work for a popular search engine before Google came into the picture. As an engineer I had to interview people every week. HR handed me lots of resumes from people with CS degrees from top universities for phone screening. They didn't bother with the rest unless someone was heavily recommended by a trusted source.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#46

Post by LPTS »

dhimes wrote: post #42
LPTS wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assumption does not hold with more information. First, self teaching processes filter out idiots too, since idiots can't self teach. P(qualified | (no degree + autodidactic)) > P(qualified | (Degree + little self teaching ability))

True, but it's getting "more information" that is costly. If someone else can do it for you, so much the better. Personal recommendations are the best source (if you know and trust the recommender).

Maybe it just seems to me like an investment obviously worth paying.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#47

Post by dhimes »

bkovitz wrote: post #34

I worked 20 years in software and publishing with no degree. In my experience, no one cared. I did not see any correlation between skill level and degree. Programming is a craft, like carpentry. You learn it by doing it, by doing it with other people, by thinking about it and talking about it, a little bit by reading books about it, and almost not at all by watching lectures about it. That said, people who don't have…

But a carpenter is not an architect. The barrier to entry for pure programming is rather low.

I see programming today as in a similar state as auto mechanics was in the 1970s & early 80s in the US. If you had good sense and aptitude, you could be one, and the barrier to entry was very low.

Now it's different. You (for the most part) need some sort of certification to be a "grease monkey;" and even then, you are fixing, tuning and rebuilding engines, not designing them.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#48

Post by LPTS »

maxklein wrote: post #27
pg wrote: post #23

Their goal is not to be perfect judges in individual cases. A crude first pass works fine for them as long as it leaves a lot of good people. http://www.paulgraham.com/judgement.html

Don't self link, that's called spamming.

No one has humor here.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#49

Post by matthewking »

Tichy wrote: post #36

Just curious, how did you teach yourself programming? To me a degree would not so much signal skill in any programming language, as a general skill in learning new stuff, which to me seems to be the most important skill of a programmer. A university degree seems to indicate that ability of learning stuff to some extent. Sure, if you taught yourself programming, you have learned something by yourself, too. But I think…

I "caught the bug" when I was 14 and messing around with mirc scripting with some IRC buddies.

I scripted a bunch of stuff for controlling mp3's, and a few socket bots to protect from channel takeovers.

Then I wanted a mp3 player more like itunes is today, and so I set about making one in VB.

From there I progressed to games, in VB and Java, such as space invaders etc, dabbled a bit with 3d programming.

Moved to the web, HTML, JS, followed by PHP, then some JSP/Servlets and ASP through a work requirement, learned SQL Server and databases in general from a MCDBA who was also a MCT.

Messed with C and linux, borrowed some books from the library and read every page, lost my way a bit and learned about creating exploits.

Then got back on track, some c++, some ASP.NET/C#.

And the list goes on. My language and framework of choice is now Ruby on Rails.

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