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Ask YC: Why the degree?

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Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#31

Post by jeff_college »

A Bachelor's degree (even in CS) isn't just job training. At least half the classes required for a degree are not related to your major. When you graduate with a CS degree you've (hopefully) learned some CS theory and some practical skills but also you're more well-rounded from learning composition, speech, math, history, science, etc. If being a developer meant pounding out code all day long then a college degree shouldn't be a factor in the hiring process. Most developers I know spend more time doing other things - planning, estimating, communicating with other teams, etc. - than coding. This non-coding workload increases as you move up the ranks so most HR departments hire with an eye toward the future as well. So given what you know to be true - that most companies require a degree - you have two options: 1. Get a degree 2. Work for a company that doesn't require a degree

And one more thing - the plural of degree is degrees not degree's. I learned that in school.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#32

Post by kashif »

nickb wrote: post #8

It all comes down to energy required to make a decision. Degree acts as a quick filter. For example, having a degree in CS does not mean that you are a good programmer but what I, as an employer, know about a person with a degree is that they possess a certain level of knowledge and they have also proven themselves and have shown that they can focus and accomplish something. If you think about it, those two things I…

Actually, I am inclined to believe that work experience is a better filter. If you are hiring freshers, than ask them to build something in a day or a week and use that instead.

Now, that doesn't mean that a person without a degree doesn't have a chance... it just means that they will have to prove themselves in some other way (being famous coder/blogger/speaker helps there)...

Actually the onus is on the employer. Shouldn't you want to hire the best?

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#33

Post by LPTS »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #10

>For all the company knows, I (and countless others) could be the best developers they'd ever meet. And yet we're automatically excluded from even applying. The game is about probability, not possibility. The assumption is: P(qualified | degree) > P(qualified | no degree) That's probably reasonable, since schools do filter out at least some idiots. To find a candidate, one must interview roughly 1/P candidates. If in…

The assumption does not hold with more information.

First, self teaching processes filter out idiots too, since idiots can't self teach.

P(qualified | (no degree + autodidactic)) > P(qualified | (Degree + little self teaching ability))

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#34

Post by bkovitz »

I worked 20 years in software and publishing with no degree. In my experience, no one cared.

I did not see any correlation between skill level and degree. Programming is a craft, like carpentry. You learn it by doing it, by doing it with other people, by thinking about it and talking about it, a little bit by reading books about it, and almost not at all by watching lectures about it.

That said, people who don't have the kind of experience with programming to tell a good programmer from a bad one have to resort to proxy measures like credentials. I usually worked for small companies, where this is less of a problem.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#35

Post by tomjen »

matthewking wrote: post #15
elad wrote: post #11

Having interviewed quite a few people, I tend to think that there's a correlation between not just a degree, but also the quality of the school where it was attained, and the quality of the candidate - as measured by his/her professional knowledge and ability. That's not always true. In fact, of the two best coders I know, one didn't bother with a degree, and the other did it as an off hand, graduating after 8 years,…

If a position stated that a degree is a "nice to have, or advantage" I would certainly still send my CV and hope that it was glowing enough to counter my lack of degree, which I would hope it is through sheer commercial experience gained while everyone else was in education. But my gripe is that most employers don't even give us that chance. In a way, that has played its part in my working life that has sent me on a…

Part of me wonders what would happen if you just faked some school on the paper. It worked wonders for the dean at MIT, so if you are smart enough give it a try.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#36

Post by Tichy »

Just curious, how did you teach yourself programming?

To me a degree would not so much signal skill in any programming language, as a general skill in learning new stuff, which to me seems to be the most important skill of a programmer. A university degree seems to indicate that ability of learning stuff to some extent. Sure, if you taught yourself programming, you have learned something by yourself, too. But I think it is a lot easier to learn one particular programming language than to have a general understanding of computer science, be able to write down stuff, learn things you are not as interested in, and so on.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#37

Post by Maro »

matthewking wrote: post #13
yummyfajitas wrote: post #10

>For all the company knows, I (and countless others) could be the best developers they'd ever meet. And yet we're automatically excluded from even applying. The game is about probability, not possibility. The assumption is: P(qualified | degree) > P(qualified | no degree) That's probably reasonable, since schools do filter out at least some idiots. To find a candidate, one must interview roughly 1/P candidates. If in…

OK I can understand it from that perspective, it's not that there's so much weight being put on a degree, but rather its used for lack of other filters, when there's lots of applicants. Doesn't sound very accurate, but I can see the reason why.

For example, the P(A | B) notation is something you learn at a University Probability class. A good feeling for elementary probability thoery is something that makes you much better at modeling, understanding and predicting the world, and not just as a programmer. And there's lots of other classes like that in a Uni. curriculum (although the overall percentage of really useful classes is in my estimate only 25-50%). Before you say that you could learn that at home, well, normal people who want to learn such things choose to go to school, and corporate HR is usually not interested in deviants. My personal opinion: I also have friends who are very smart and great programmers and dropped out of school, and I think that that particular choice was not very smart on their part, they could have just finished it, and would be in a much better position. Eg. they wouldn't be reliant on personal recommendations when applying for jobs; also, how do you ask for a raise w/o a degree --- where are you going to go instead?. etc.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#38

Post by matthewking »

jeff_college wrote: post #31

A Bachelor's degree (even in CS) isn't just job training. At least half the classes required for a degree are not related to your major. When you graduate with a CS degree you've (hopefully) learned some CS theory and some practical skills but also you're more well-rounded from learning composition, speech, math, history, science, etc. If being a developer meant pounding out code all day long then a college degree sh…

Interesting points. However, you seem to be assuming that people without degrees disappear into some kind of a time warp while everyone else is at university.

Team work, communication, planning and organisation skills can be picked up in real life environments too, if anything in a better fashion.

When you enter employment at a young age, your employer and your colleagues are more willing to show you the ropes and give you time to learn on the job, considering you usually start at a low position. Then you proceed to learn real world experience for a number of years, depending on how quickly you dropped out of education, and how quickly you landed a job.

I had been working as a developer for 5 years by the time my friends of the same age finished their degrees. Put that into perspective and compare to people fresh out of university.

I'm not saying people with a degree have wasted their time, or that it wasn't the right thing to do. Just give those of us who chose a different path some credit too.

As far as my options go, I'm now self employed and loving it.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#39

Post by LPTS »

maxklein wrote: post #29

I used to think that a computer science degree was not useful. However, can you answer the following questions: 1. How would you program a compiler for a new DSL? 2. What is stdcall? How does it relate to the stack? 3. How many registers does a 486 have? What is a register? 4. How does ethernet work? 5. What is the most efficient way to break a project down into tasks and milestones when dealing with a large team? 6.…

"When you learn by yourself, you tend to learn enough to do what you need to get done. In school you learn things that are not immediately obvious that you need them."

No, no, no. YOU tend to only do the minimum to do what needs to get done without outside pressure. Don't project your flaws onto us self teaching people who don't share them. Any autodidactic person will constantly be learning both generalist and specialist things. Just because you don't have enough fire in your belly to do more then the minimum learning when you're on your own doesn't mean anything about anyone else.

(EDIT: Sorry. Not to be too harsh on you. Your quiz is relevant. Of course, if the OP can't answer questions like yours in his field, he isn't the kind of autodidact I'm defending. But if he can, (and given that many self teaching people can do things like that easy) your point about learning just enough to get stuff done is more a personal thing then anything about autodidactic people)

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#40

Post by icey »

kashif wrote: post #32
nickb wrote: post #8

It all comes down to energy required to make a decision. Degree acts as a quick filter. For example, having a degree in CS does not mean that you are a good programmer but what I, as an employer, know about a person with a degree is that they possess a certain level of knowledge and they have also proven themselves and have shown that they can focus and accomplish something. If you think about it, those two things I…

Actually, I am inclined to believe that work experience is a better filter. If you are hiring freshers, than ask them to build something in a day or a week and use that instead. Now, that doesn't mean that a person without a degree doesn't have a chance... it just means that they will have to prove themselves in some other way (being famous coder/blogger/speaker helps there)... Actually the onus is on the employer. S…

The onus is not on the employer. The employer's job is to fill the hole with the best that they can easily ascertain. I can tell you from doing hiring in the past that people have gotten very good at filling their resume's with bullshit.

The last time I hired someone for a Senior Developer position, I had to filter through almost 500 resume submissions. Of those, I did a telephone technical interview with about 200 applicants. We did face to face interviews with the 6 applicants who passed an incredibly simple technical interview - Things that any programmer who has done any real work would almost be insulted by.

Any available filter to help sort the wheat from the chaff is helpful, and a degree is one of those filters.

That being said, I do not have a degree in anything, I got into the industry at 17 and haven't had time to go to school. But, I've been able to get far by working harder than everyone else; in the conversation of degrees making a difference, I'd like to have one, sure. But I've never needed one. I think it's come up in one interview once, and it ended up being a nonpoint.

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