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Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

nytimes.com

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Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#41

Post by [deleted] »

entee wrote: post #40
kylec wrote: post #29

I don't think anyone seriously thinks that learning a computer language is in any way equivalent to learning a foreign language. But it is useful to pretend that it does, so that we don't have to ask the real question: Should everyone be required to study a foreign language in school? My answer is no. I took a year of Latin in high school and hated it, and have never thought about it since. It was a huge waste of tim…

As someone who grew up bilingual, I think knowing another language has been invaluable to how I approach and understand the world. I disagree (fully acknowledging my bias) that learning another language is a waste of time. However, I think high school is too late. Most people I knew in HS that started learning another language weren't super invested and didn't learn it. Not to mention that it's really hard to do at 1…

[deleted]

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#42

Post by philipov »

semitext wrote: post #11

My understanding is that the younger you are the easier it is to pick up a foreign language. Whereas that doesn't appear to be the case for computer languages. Learning either creates opportunities for life changing opportunities for the better, but I think it would be a mistake for people to forego learning a foreign language at that age. If they want to learn programming languages as well they will, but I know lots…

I learned my first programming language, Basic, when I was 8 years old, and reading code feels like a natural language to me. I think the complication is that programming involves both a language and a logic system. While language may be created naturally before puberty, having the requisite logical reasoning requires something extra. I had very early access to formal logic training, and this combined with self-motivated interest helped me overcome that barrier. I think it would be a deal breaker for others. It's one thing to be able to read a language, quite another to understand what it says.

Another factor is that the kind of language children are very good at learning is the spoken kind. Human capacity for reading and writing is not necessarily natural. You don't find many children learning Latin on their own without some other factor lowering the barrier for entry, either. Having a parent with whom to speak Latin would be that kind of factor.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#43

Post by wallflower »

ken wrote: post #39
kylec wrote: post #29

I don't think anyone seriously thinks that learning a computer language is in any way equivalent to learning a foreign language. But it is useful to pretend that it does, so that we don't have to ask the real question: Should everyone be required to study a foreign language in school? My answer is no. I took a year of Latin in high school and hated it, and have never thought about it since. It was a huge waste of tim…

I once took a summer class in Latin and Greek, and it was one of the most useful classes I've ever taken. Half of English is based on Latin roots. It's like a programmer getting the source code to the standard library. Everything got easier. In real life, knowing a little Latin has been way more useful than the years of German I took to fulfill graduation requirements. Big German words are made of little German words…

> I'm surprised Latin isn't part of the standard English curriculum.

The declensions!!!

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#44

Post by beering »

fixermark wrote: post #34

Spoiler for those tired of question-begging headlines: The author's answer is "no."

In defense of this particular question-begging headline, the question itself is something the author wants us all to consider and answer. It's unlike question-begging headlines such as, "Can eating gummy bears twice a day cure cancer?"

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#45

Post by fao_ »

kylec wrote: post #38
fao_ wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Latin isn't a living language, though.

It satisfied the foreign language requirement

Bertrand Russell argued against the use of learning Greek and Latin in the early 1930s -- for the reason that previously, the main source of education and culture and just plain 'new ideas' for people around the time of the Enlightenment was the written records of the Greeks and Romans.

Nowadays the bulk of new ideas are in living foreign languages like French, Italian, Russian, etc. I know that, for example, Spain is a large hub of the Free Software movement. Sweden has a big export on crime drama, France on romance movies. There are thousands of Russian academic papers with ideas that are still unknown in the west, because of the cold war.

You probably would have better enjoyed the language if it gave you access to things you found interesting, or if the culture contained something useful or interesting to you.

Or to see it differently, of course "It was a huge waste of time", you chose a language that has no cultural benefit to you, and was forced to learn it. And then you seem surprised that it didn't pay off!

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#46

Post by tjr »

jhbadger wrote: post #35
tjr wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like I could pretty easily be fluent in more natural languages if, as with programming languages, "fluency" included being able to look things up in reference manuals, and if my expression of the language was limited to reading and writing, rather than listening and speaking.

That's actually how classical languages (Latin, Ancient Greek, Babylonian, etc.) are generally taught. Even professional classicists are generally not expected to speak their ancient tongues and using dictionaries are par for the course for making translations.

Clearly, I should have opted for Latin in fulfillment of my required foreign language credits in college. :-)

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#47

Post by gabbygab »

The title is rather disappointing as it implies that nobody at the nytimes understands the difference between computer code and programming language. As an analogy, computer code to programming language is what a book is to a human language. Would you ask if a book is a foreign language? A programming language is what computer code is written in. Just like a human language is what a book is written in.

As for whether a programming language is a foreign language, the answer is an obvious no. Programming languages have mathematical/logical limitations of soundness, completeness, decidability, etc. If programming languages are a foreign languages, then so is algebra or calculus.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#49

Post by ken »

wallflower wrote: post #43
ken wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once took a summer class in Latin and Greek, and it was one of the most useful classes I've ever taken. Half of English is based on Latin roots. It's like a programmer getting the source code to the standard library. Everything got easier. In real life, knowing a little Latin has been way more useful than the years of German I took to fulfill graduation requirements. Big German words are made of little German words…

> I'm surprised Latin isn't part of the standard English curriculum. The declensions!!!

Well, there's the useful parts of Latin, for English speakers, and the not-so-useful parts. :-)

You can learn a bunch of basic Latin vocabulary, and make good use of it in English, without needing to practice all the declensions until your fingernails fall out.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#50

Post by jjtheblunt »

kylec wrote: post #29

I don't think anyone seriously thinks that learning a computer language is in any way equivalent to learning a foreign language. But it is useful to pretend that it does, so that we don't have to ask the real question: Should everyone be required to study a foreign language in school? My answer is no. I took a year of Latin in high school and hated it, and have never thought about it since. It was a huge waste of tim…

took 4 years of Latin in high school, and it was very useful: I guess its value varies depending on what else you do later, and if it's therefore helpful there?
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