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Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

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Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#41

Post by DubiousPusher »

TadaScientist wrote: post #27
DubiousPusher wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. National identities didn't arise naturally. Many of them were very thoughtfully and intentionally invented. For most of human history, the idea that people over a geography the size of Engalnd would see themselves as one people would've been ridiculous. It's really only in the last 200-400 years that people have accepted the nation…

Oh really? National identities didn't arise naturally? Ask the Greeks and the Italians

You almost couldn't have picked two worse examples. Italy, for most of its history was divided into regions or even into smaller city states depending on the era. Even during the Roman hedgemony the peninusala did not act as a single political entity. There was significant disagreement about who outside of Roman was "Roman". This came to a head when Rome fought a war against it's neighboring cities and villages over the issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_War_(91%E2%80%9388_BC)

It wasn't until the early 1800s that a group of nationalists and aristocrats started a nationalist movement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy#Italian_unification

Greek nationalism developed around the same time. Before that, the territory that is modern Greece passed in large pieces between different empires and the Catholic church. Previous to that the Polis or city state was the highest political authority and the unit of place identity. There was some flirtation with larger alliances like those that fought the Peloponnesian War but they were loose and did not last after outside conquest.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#42

Post by KozmoNau7 »

yeahforsureman wrote: post #17

What the hell, where's Sweden and Denmark? Or the much-hyped E-stonia? (Not that it would've made a difference.)

Unfortunately, the majority of parties in Denmark have a real hard-on for this copyright directive. Either from a belief that it will protect the artists, or from a "law and order" perspective that this will finally stick it those eeeeeevil pirates by giving even more power to the rights holders, in an attempt to completely abolish fair use doctrines.

The ramifications if this directive passes are absolutely disastrous, potentially putting a gigantic legalistic roadblock in the way of any free sharing of information online. I've tried writing my representatives to explain just how extreme the consequences will be, but they just refuse to listen, and insist on sticking to the party line, most of the replies I got were just canned responses. Or I guess they prefer listening to the lobbyists instead of their constituents.

As someone who became a huge music fan through file sharing with my friends and later through the internet via FTPs, IRC channels and DCC, Napster, Kazaa, torrents and shady Russian forums, I think this unprecedented tightening of the net will be a real detriment to culture and art.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#43

Post by isostatic »

decebalus1 wrote: post #22
citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

> With that, countries like the U.K., who have a strong national identity, can and should leave - if they want to be an independent nation. I want what you're smoking. What are you talking about? Do the Scots identify with the Welsh or the Irish? The UK, as all countries is an artificial construct which did not 'organically' came to existence based on the 'national' awakening of Its population.

Quite, as a UK citizen I struggle to see anything in common with 52% of my fellow citizens

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#44

Post by grokys »

luckydata wrote: post #37
grokys wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Italy was unified in 1871, in part by force. And many parts of Italy still resent that and consider themselves Sicilian, Napolitan etc rather than "Italian". I can't speak for Greece, but Italy is a really BAD example of a "naturally arisen" national identity. In fact the (now second party) Northern League's sole purpose until Matteo Salvini was to split Northen Italy from the south.

Can confirm some of this is true, but it would be overstating the division. It's a LONG conversation that I would be happy to have with a couple beers, but as a mixed Piemontese-Sicilian person living in the US I have a little more perspective on that than the average person :)

Ah yes, apologies if I overstated. I should perhaps have said "some people in many parts of Italy still resent...". I'm often told by friends from the south about how the north treated the south during and after unification, and from what I understand there is still a lingering resentment there. I think the point still stands that Italy is not example of a "naturally arisen" national identity anyway.

Source: British person living in Northern Italy with many friends from the South.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#45

Post by gammateam »

citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

The UK was the only one vetoing a real EU military

So with them gone, expect it

Just going to have to accept that Germany is better at this game

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#46

Post by Kurtz79 »

mtgx wrote: post #24
citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

I don't know what you mean by "centralized economy" but centralized markets have their (huge) benefits. Think about how much easier it is to launch a service within all the United States of America at once compared to launching it in all of the countries in the European Union. The language barrier is a huge obstacle, no doubt, but it's far from the only one. Another way to look at "centralization" is from the point o…

Yes. A small example from my very small world (railway).

Materials to be used on rolling stock (trains) must comply with Fire/Smoke/Toxicity standards. A few years ago these standards were only at national level, there is a French standard, a German one, etc... It was hell to demonstrate that your German-made widget could be used in a train meant to operate in UK.

In the last few years this has been harmonized in a EU-level standard, which makes much simpler and cheaper for manufacturers to market their products across the Union and for customers to integrate them in their systems.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#47

Post by Kurtz79 »

Strom wrote: post #38
yeahforsureman wrote: post #17

What the hell, where's Sweden and Denmark? Or the much-hyped E-stonia? (Not that it would've made a difference.)

The lack of Estonia seemed curious to me as well, given Estonia's voting history regarding Article 13. Then I looked up the voting history for all these countries. [1] The votes against Article 13 have been as follows: Poland 72% (36 vs 14) Netherlands 71% (17 vs 7) Finland 50% (6 vs 6) Italy 38% (25 vs 41) Luxembourg 33% (2 vs 4) Sweden 100% (18 vs 0) Estonia 83% (5 vs 1) Denmark 17% (2 vs 10) Looking at this frankl…

In Italy there has been a radical change in terms of governing parties/policy towards the EU over the last year.

Right now the majority elected for the EU parliament does not really match the actual government's disposition.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#48

Post by rtkwe »

citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

> But by trying to manage the economy (which copyright is an extension of), they are essentially going down the path of ever increasing centralization.

That management is core to one of the major benefits of the EU though the free movement of goods. By necessity to have that completely free movement goods have to be produced, sold and consumed under the same set of laws. Otherwise a product produced legally in one country could be illegal in another which would start to inch back towards border checks over time as national laws diverged.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#49

Post by kfwhp »

pjc50 wrote: post #26
DelightOne wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> introduce laws within their own countries to support the Directive. Why so complicated? It seems a bad idea to have 28 different laws which generally say the same thing but with possibly small differences so it gets a minefield. No wonder EU is a difficult market. Who possibly thought that's a good idea?

Because, despite what people say, the countries of the EU are distinct countries with their own legal systems.

That is true and, at the same time, the EU is forcing all countries to implement this directive into their law, whether they want it or not. There are 8 countries that don't want it, but they can't oppose.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#50

Post by dingaling »

pslam wrote: post #13
citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

You win at right wing talking-points bingo. The whole point of the EU is that Europe is better when it's together. There were multiple wars, involving the death of many millions, and that's just the last hundred years. Independence is just dressed up nationalism, and all the ugly facets it is made of.

> There were multiple wars, involving the death of many millions, and that's just the last hundred years.

Of which the EU has existed for just 27 years.

For the 70 years of its existence NATO has been a strong bond and influence, with the exception of the Turkish invasion of Cyprus it has prevented violent conflict between its members. And it didn't require integration of forces; it published standards for commonality and each member nation determined the nature of its own implementation and declared its contribution to collective defence.

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