National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners • Hacker News Board

Re: National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners

#41

Post by seles » Sat, Nov 13, 2010, 2:41 AM UTC

There seems to be debate about whether or not this day is good or bad. But it is pretty simple if the scanners are good the day is bad, if the scanners are bad then the day is good.

This is the real issue, but there has probably been alot of debate about this already? What made you take your current stance?

I went though the body scanner this Monday in Cincinnati, well aware of the fact that they can see your penis etc (and it was cold that day...). It didn't bother me that much, but it was much more time consuming than going through the old metal detectors, and I don't like the fact that this could be harmful (but I haven't researched how credible this is).

Re: National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners

#42

Post by jim_h » Sat, Nov 13, 2010, 2:44 AM UTC

If you opt-out, please be respectful to the TSA security people. They're just working and can't change the policies for you. Most of them are not in high positions and can't just walk away and find another job the next day/week. So they're not quitting no matter how rudely you treat them. No point to it and it'll just make them grumpy towards you and everybody after you.

It's best to just talk to them like a regular person and be nice about it. It'll make the pat down experience better for you and them. Just ask them to send the word upstream.

edit - Why was I voted down? Is someone suggesting that you should act like a douche bag to the staff?

Re: National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners

#43

Post by karzeem » Sat, Nov 13, 2010, 2:45 AM UTC

One of the great things about this backlash is that it springs mostly from just a handful of small, mostly web-based efforts. Jonah Goldberg's post arguably kicked off this latest, biggest anti-body-scanner outcry.

Among web sites:

http://www.optoutday.com is probably the most notable.

http://wewontfly.com is another biggie.

http://www.imadethetsafeelmyresistance.com (disclosure: I made it) has gotten a bunch of traffic too.

There are lots of others. This whole thing has heated up a lot in the last week or two. And I suspect the next week or two are going to be a lot bigger.

Re: National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners

#44

Post by danilocampos » Sat, Nov 13, 2010, 2:47 AM UTC

aneth wrote: post #29

danilocampos wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's start with this: In a free society, people are being coerced to participate in a security procedure that violates their privacy. Don't want to go through the porno scanners? Okay, punk — have fun being aggressively groped in punishment. You don't get to enact this kind of invasive, extreme policy on a whim. Extreme measures call for extreme circumstances and at this point, no one has made any sort of compelling…

We have always been coerced into procedures that violate our privacy when we fly. If we were not, terrorists would regularly board aircraft with guns and ammo. From a shitload of personal travel (I fly twice a month) I have found 95% of the TSA to be good humored and responsible. The situation today is fa better than it was when run by private companies.

> We have always been coerced into procedures that violate our privacy when we fly.

Detecting metallic objects isn't really a violation of privacy. Neither is seeing an X-ray image of mundane baggage. This is your body, we're talking about. And I'm not aware of any previous policy that allowed TSA to cop a feel with such gratuitous abandon.

> If we were not, terrorists would regularly board aircraft with guns and ammo.

When "terrorists" and other boogeymen reach the airport with all their destructive goodies, our security apparatus has already failed.

Re: National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners

#45

Post by danilocampos » Sat, Nov 13, 2010, 2:49 AM UTC

aneth wrote: post #25

danilocampos wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scan is for detecting additional, nonmetallic threats, especially explosives. Just one problem: nothing in the new procedures can prevent moving the same thing via your rectum. So if we want to pretend everyone will adhere to a specific conception of the threat model, sure, spend a bunch of money and alienate the traveling public.

So because it doesn't provide absolute security it doesn't provide "additional" security? Those are two very different things.

It provides incremental security at a cost to our civil liberties and taxes that is orders of magnitude greater than existing policy.

Re: National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners

#46

Post by techiferous » Sat, Nov 13, 2010, 2:52 AM UTC

jberryman wrote: post #35

Not sure how feasible or legal it is to do this, but a good strategy for a demonstration might be to hand out fliers to people waiting in the security line. On the fliers would be some information on the new security policy and body scanners and an example image of a body scan. Also attached would be a sticker that says "opt out". That we people can make an informed and visible decision before they encounter the TSA…

It would also be nice to include some objective, unbiased data explaining how effective these types of security measures are at preventing terrorist attacks.

Re: National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners

#47

Post by barrkel » Sat, Nov 13, 2010, 2:55 AM UTC

jberryman wrote: post #35

Not sure how feasible or legal it is to do this, but a good strategy for a demonstration might be to hand out fliers to people waiting in the security line. On the fliers would be some information on the new security policy and body scanners and an example image of a body scan. Also attached would be a sticker that says "opt out". That we people can make an informed and visible decision before they encounter the TSA…

I was wondering if it would make sense to hand out dosimeters instead, to encourage people to think about what they're submitting to.

Re: National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners

#48

Post by barrkel » Sat, Nov 13, 2010, 2:57 AM UTC

aneth wrote: post #29

danilocampos wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's start with this: In a free society, people are being coerced to participate in a security procedure that violates their privacy. Don't want to go through the porno scanners? Okay, punk — have fun being aggressively groped in punishment. You don't get to enact this kind of invasive, extreme policy on a whim. Extreme measures call for extreme circumstances and at this point, no one has made any sort of compelling…

We have always been coerced into procedures that violate our privacy when we fly. If we were not, terrorists would regularly board aircraft with guns and ammo. From a shitload of personal travel (I fly twice a month) I have found 95% of the TSA to be good humored and responsible. The situation today is fa better than it was when run by private companies.

The TSA agents who are unhappy about groping strangers are going to be the ones who find a new job. I fully expect that if this policy continues, the people most attracted to TSA positions will be those who derive pleasure from subjecting strangers to a sexualized grope.

Re: National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners

#49

Post by barrkel » Sat, Nov 13, 2010, 3:05 AM UTC

seles wrote: post #41

There seems to be debate about whether or not this day is good or bad. But it is pretty simple if the scanners are good the day is bad, if the scanners are bad then the day is good. This is the real issue, but there has probably been alot of debate about this already? What made you take your current stance? I went though the body scanner this Monday in Cincinnati, well aware of the fact that they can see your penis e…

We have to draw the line somewhere; if not here, they'll push the line further, and further. The TSA has no motive to do a cost-benefit analysis: the force pushing them forward is risk, no matter how small, but the only force pushing back against them is how much budget they can get out of the American taxpayer. The saliency of terrorism fears overpowers analytic reason in too many people.

A quick search indicates there are over 87,000 flights daily in the US alone; that puts the number at over a quarter billion flights without a successful terrorist incident in the absence of these scanners.

Re: National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners

#50

Post by orangecat » Sat, Nov 13, 2010, 3:06 AM UTC

nphase wrote: post #17

This reminds me of all those Facebook groups telling people to protest OPEC by not buying gas on X day.

The gas "boycotts" are stupid, because they just shift sales to the days before and after. This could have a meaningful impact, because it really will increase the number of molestations that TSA agents have to perform.