What Happens to Kid Culture When Streets Are Closed to Cars • Hacker News Board

Re: What Happens to Kid Culture When Streets Are Closed to Cars

#41

Post by kingo55 » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 10:39 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #27

kingo55 wrote: post #23

I live in St Kilda, Australia and our council recently changed one of our iconic streets to almost exclusively be for pedestrians and trams. Businesses protested for months about potential lost business, however as a resident I feel so much safer walking down the street. It feels like foot traffic has increased there, too. It's such an improvement. I also like to think tunnels to apartment buildings could help us tak…

> Businesses protested for months about potential lost business Out of curiosity, how did that pan out? Closing off an area to road traffic is basically a re-prioritization towards nearby residents, and away from distant visitors and the commerce that they engage in, so it would be interesting to know how badly the latter groups suffer.

Hard to say, I think businesses haven't been affected too badly. I've seen some closures but there were closures back when vehicles were permitted all the way through the street, too...

Distant visitors still arrive by tram loads. And parking, whilst terrible, is available close by.

When you think about switching the area back to allow cars again, you begin to realise how little you needed that street to begin with. It was mostly for people showing off their cars and loud music.

Re: What Happens to Kid Culture When Streets Are Closed to Cars

#42

Post by Nasrudith » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 10:39 PM UTC

Qwertystop wrote: post #6

justtopost wrote: post #2

Nothing happens if you keep them inside feeding their tiktok and fortnite addictions. I can't even recall the last time I broke up a hockey or streetball game driving through neighborhoods.

A large reason kids play Fortnite is because it provides a space to socialize - it's a lot harder for kids to get anywhere without a parent driving, these days, and the parents are a lot less likely to leave the kids unattended, which tends to put a damper on things. Even malls often try to discourage crowds of teens, if you can even get there without a drive.

Reminds me of Christiana Mall in New Jersey's "Suicide by Ageism". They implemented a policy banning unaccompanied teenagers after 5pm - despite having 16 year olds working there! Articles in 2008 mention the boycott and the owner of the mall went bankrupt in 2009. Malls weren't their healthiest then and had grown beyond sustainability but talk about fast turn-around.

Re: What Happens to Kid Culture When Streets Are Closed to Cars

#43

Post by gnulinux » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 10:40 PM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #21

gnulinux wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Roads are almost always wider than needed Wait until you see Boston. I live in this street in Cambridge, its not quite wide enough for buses so occasionally they cross the lane of the opposite direction, especially if some asshole parked a little off. If this wasn't unsafe enough, there is also an elementary school near this street! In general. Boston streets are very narrow and it makes it hard to drive since (1)…

This is actually beneficial for pedestrian safety because it decreases the perceived safe speed for all sensible drivers, versus putting a 25mph speed limit on a wide boulevard where everyone drives 40mph.

Haha you're underestimating Boston drivers. Out of all the places I lived in my life (SF, Berlin, Paris) drivers in Boston drive by far the fastest. Streets being narrow doesn't make people drive slower, instead it makes people drive more aggressive which puts stress on drivers, bikers and pedestrians alike.

Re: What Happens to Kid Culture When Streets Are Closed to Cars

#44

Post by kingo55 » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 10:40 PM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #36

clairity wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'm on board with putting express roads and parking underground (even though the costs are high) and making the extra space available for humans, pets and lower speed transport like bikes and scooters. i'd also advocate making licensing for vehicles much harder and increasing the enforcement and punishment of distracted driving.

how do you increase the enforcement of distracted driving?

Cameras overhead. There is a trial to catch drivers on their phones in Sydney IIRC.

Edit: found it https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/dec/17/drive...

Re: What Happens to Kid Culture When Streets Are Closed to Cars

#45

Post by nosequel » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 10:41 PM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #7

You can also have more parks and fields that are well-maintained and available in proportions appropriate to the local population (i.e. not held at existing supply through density changes). It is a false dichotomy to suggest we have to choose between kids playing outside and having streets for transportation. Not to mention that anyone who grew up pre-Internet or pre-smartphones knows that the real barriers to kids p…

> Not to mention that anyone who grew up pre-Internet or pre-smartphones knows that the real barriers to kids playing outside are more cultural/societal.

I did, and 100% that's not the barrier today. I moved my kids from a neighborhood packed with cars to one with several dead-end streets and no through traffic and the change in my kids' lives has been shocking. They almost never wanted to play outside before because they couldn't really get anywhere safely. Now they are outside until dark nearly every day they aren't in school.

This isn't even addressing your ridiculous assumption that cities/towns can just easily add parks and fields. Those things take up space and people without kids don't care at all about them and want that land for their condos.

Re: What Happens to Kid Culture When Streets Are Closed to Cars

#46

Post by moultano » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 10:41 PM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #25

glangdale wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the ability to get to the parks and fields without parental intervention is important in itself. I live in a neighborhood in Sydney where many of our streets are traffic sewers that people blast through at amazing (relatively speaking) speeds. As a large, visible adult, I walk the dog every day and 1-2 times out of 10 some idiot on a street 50m from my house doesn't know what the rules on a crosswalk are. Peo…

That seems to me like a different problem (one of education or enforcement of traffic laws), although I acknowledge that a middle ground helps. I have not had the same experience as you where I am - maybe that is because we have traffic signals in some places, or crosswalks with flashing lights in others, or more courteous drivers for the rest of it (unmarked crossings), but I definitely feel plenty safe walking arou…

> That seems to me like a different problem (one of education or enforcement of traffic laws)

A child walking next to a road is in a situation where any mistake they make is reasonably likely to result in their death. No amount of education and enforcement is going to improve driver's reflexes and awareness enough to keep them from killing a kid who suddenly does something impulsive.

> if you travel to less developed nations, young children are able to successfully navigate complex cities with much more unforgiving streets unsupervised, with confidence.

In less developed nations, drivers have to be constantly on the lookout for random things on the road, like cows. If my kids do something random, they'll be the only random thing a US driver will encounter that week, and people aren't prepared for it.

Re: What Happens to Kid Culture When Streets Are Closed to Cars

#47

Post by Gibbon1 » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 10:51 PM UTC

This reminds me of a dead end alley in San Francisco where the residents got the city to allow them to install a gate.

Suddenly you can allow your four year old to go out the front door by themself.

Re: What Happens to Kid Culture When Streets Are Closed to Cars

#48

Post by zepearl » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 10:53 PM UTC

ndnxhs wrote: post #40

zepearl wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same in Switzerland, but if the city/community is really serious about that and there are some long-term plans: don't build slick surfaces but ones made of "bricks" or similar (example: https://www.experiencedbricks.com/images/products/kushequa-b... ) which definitely get rid of the "need for speed"-feeling (as the faster you go the more everything vibrates in your car, kind of an analog force-feedback feeling), and…

Bricks are also a pain for bikes which often don't have huge tires and suspension.

Right, but we're talking about few millimeters (not centimeters) of difference between bricks, which are not comfy but not too extreme if driving on any bike at ~10km/h => advantages outweigh disatvantages.

Bikes being the least problematic opponent group, I would be more worried by skateboard, inline-skate, etc... opposition groups.

In Switzerland we solved it (as long as it was implemented by the local community or city) by having very smooth sidewalks (but bikes still have to drive on the street as they're too fast for the sidewalk and have more than enough suspension for the normal street at normal speeds).

Re: What Happens to Kid Culture When Streets Are Closed to Cars

#49

Post by robertAngst » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 10:56 PM UTC

baxtr wrote: post #28

I don’t get why cities are built around cars. As much as I love to jump into my car right outside my house, I’d love it even more when there was no car sound in the streets and children could safely walk everywhere. In densely populated cities cars should be banned outside of major roads

This was brought up in Adam Ruins Everything, and his Automotive episode was so misleading that I don't trust anything he says.

>I don’t get why cities are built around cars.

Sure there is a fantasy that we could have cities that don't require roads. However our modern 5,000,000 population Metro areas wouldnt exist. Instead housing prices would skyrocket, and the lowest income people would be forced to live in rural areas.

> In densely populated cities cars should be banned outside of major roads

>I’d love it even more when there was no car sound

These are short sighted.

EDIT: I'm sorry to kill the fantasy, but wouldnt you rather hear why an idea doesnt work? Or maybe this is another case of 10%ers that care more about quiet streets than societal impact.

Re: What Happens to Kid Culture When Streets Are Closed to Cars

#50

Post by b3b0p » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 10:59 PM UTC

I live downtown Minneapolis and live near Nicollet Mall [0]. Which only allows pedestrians and busses. It's quite nice. They put out chairs for people to sit on and at times have things like a connect four and corn hole games. There is a regular farmers market that happens also.

I love how safe it feels. It's almost like a giant side walk. I'm always surprised that the chairs don't get stolen. I walk down it multiple times a day usually (unless I take the Skyway because of weather).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicollet_Mall